How to "save" the NHS

Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer

Mbongwe

On ROPS
On ROPs
It's funny, if you even hint at reforming the NHS the loons will appear howling that do we want a system like the Americans? But in the US when anyone talks about reforming their system they point to the NHS as the alternative and that kills the conversation stone dead.

The developed world does not envy the NHS. By and large, they pity us, and will do anything to avoid needing medical care in the UK!
Not true; plenty of British ex-pats from Spain, Greece and Cyprus return to the UK, for want of a better phrase, to die, once they reach their late-70s and or develop acute or complex conditions. One of my relatives did that, returning to the UK after decades in Canada (marriage, kids, home) when she was 80-ish and didn't have long to live.
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
Yup - just been through the exact same process with the missus.

After over 6 years worth of Spouse Visas, NHS Surcharges, bank account and document attestations - well over £10k including a couple of 'VIP Appointments' - oh, and we had to lock up close to £70k in liquid funds for the whole process to prove we'd not be a burden to the state, provide PROOF of a real relationship with regular photos of holidays, events etc... - during the period, she could work, pay tax but she couldn't claim a penny in any benefit of any kind - She got her ILR a couple of weeks ago and all that stress has simply melted away. We were always worried that a simple technicality could affect everything (and it nearly did as whoever ticked the boxes on the final ILR application couldn't read a bank statement properly).

Trust me - it's been a running joke for a long time that we could have saved a lot of money if we'd had a day trip to Calais...

Same here. The illegal immigrant issue makes a mockery of it all.
 
7.5% pay rise across the board to thank the NHS over covid.
The way you retain staff & attract new staff to the NHS.
Put more money in to Mental Health services.
And get GP's to open on weekends, the NHS should be 24/7.
Mental Health services are a joke.
The only services they offer you are in the words of my GP "superficial, but you can certainly try a private therapist."

I can confirm what they do offer is akin to one of those driver awareness courses.

Yeah, cheers.
What do we pay you for exactly?
 
HS2 went the moment the Chancellor open his mouth to fund the works and business along with lots of other projects in the pipeline. Prior to this BJ had already started on a policy of keeping those gains with money going up north.

As to the NHS at the end of this CV19 outbreak it will be the perfect time to attack the money wasting as they can point to areas that didn't work very well and need to have those resources redirected to those that work very well.

The day the NHS stops wasting money will be the day hell freezes over!.
 

Dentistry in trouble

Please remember that NHS dentistry is not free

May I please advance the idea, there's a reason for that:


We're in the shit, and run out of money. We're over 100% of GDP in debt. Lets see how the NHS does if the government is bankrupt. The really annoying thing was we'd gotten the hump from the Labour years under control and were starting to bring it down, then CV19.
 
Well the NHS would have saved your life and you wouldn’t have got a bill because the costs come out of the taxes you pay. The NHS would also have saved the lives of the 8.5% of people who can’t afford healthcare insurance.

Bear in mind that they also do actually pay taxes both directly if they are employed but also indirectly through indirect taxes.

Just out of interest, how many milllions of people is 8.5% of the population?

The NHS isn’t perfect. There’s always room for improvement but it is the envy of most of those around the world who don’t have access to healthcare services both for routine treatment and emergency lifesaving treatment.

Don’t confuse the deliberate underfunding of some parts of the NHS and the deliberate poor service levels provided to the public in some instances by the NHS which are deliberately put in place by a regime and it‘s supporters that promotes private healthcare as a better alternative because they have associates who want to turn it into a multi trillion pound cash cow similar to the American model.
my 92 year old mother tripped and fell. She ended up with an inch long cut on her forehead. It was deep and almost reached her skull. All bleeding profusely. Ambulance people on other end of phone did not regard this as an emergency. GP practice did not want to know. Ambulance called at 11;00. Ambulance did not arrive until 22:00. Ambulance crew apparently unable to access electronic records. My mother has been paying into this disgusting parody of a health service since it was set up.

Apologists for the nhs will doubtless plead poverty - but somehow they still find money to employ 'Diversity champions'
 
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So do the Germans and the Dutch pay for their healthcare when they turn up at a hospital as well then?
It is obligatory to have health insurance if you are in the Netherlands for more than an airport transit. For UK citizens there is an arrangement for paperwork that shifts the bills back to the NHS (EHIC or something like that?), but it only counts for a couple of months -- after that you need health-insurance. There are usually bits of the EU countries systems that cover their citizens for emergency care on holiday and so on, up to ninety days a year for my own insurance, which costs more than my mortgage.

Edited to add: Evidence of insurance is usually a credit-card sized plastic pass thing which can give access to insurance-validity information from any hospital etc. I carry mine every time I go out of the door. It is also obligatory to carry ID at all times (driving-licence, foreigner's residence-status card etc.). It is also obligatory to be registered as living at a specific address, which is checked by local-authorities. The whole system is fairly tight, much more detailled than the UK, but I'm sure a lot of criminals get around the rules nevertheless.
 
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The day the NHS stops wasting money will be the day hell freezes over!.


too right, all those senior managers & diversity Tsars & their numerous minions won't pay for themselves you know!!
snip "According to accounts for 2019-20, Prerana Issar joined NHS England as Chief People Officer in April 2019 on a salary of between £230,000 and £235,000 – equivalent to the salaries of nine newly qualified nurses or the cost of 20 hip replacement operations.
The salary is far higher than that of Boris Johnson – who is paid £157,332 – and £35,000 more than that earned by her now former boss Lord Stevens."


And NHS to pay £270,000 to new execs to make sure £36,000,000,000 is spent wisely
snip ... "The NHS is hiring 42 new chief executives who will be paid up to £270,000 each, raising fears about how the new health and social care tax will be spent."
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
too right, all those senior managers & diversity Tsars & their numerous minions won't pay for themselves you know!!
snip "According to accounts for 2019-20, Prerana Issar joined NHS England as Chief People Officer in April 2019 on a salary of between £230,000 and £235,000 – equivalent to the salaries of nine newly qualified nurses or the cost of 20 hip replacement operations.
The salary is far higher than that of Boris Johnson – who is paid £157,332 – and £35,000 more than that earned by her now former boss Lord Stevens."


And NHS to pay £270,000 to new execs to make sure £36,000,000,000 is spent wisely
snip ... "The NHS is hiring 42 new chief executives who will be paid up to £270,000 each, raising fears about how the new health and social care tax will be spent."

The only way to save the NHS is likely to cause the gravy train to hit the buffers. Thus it'll never happen. And until it does stories like @Clio1326 or mine (I had a recent outbreak of incompetence from the NHS that could have been caught sooner, but resulted in a 4 day visit to hospital) will remain.

I would love the review to email every manager or above and ask them 'So how exactly does your post cure people?'
 

4(T)

LE
It is obligatory to have health insurance if you are in the Netherlands for more than an airport transit. For UK citizens there is an arrangement for paperwork that shifts the bills back to the NHS (EHIC or something like that?), but it only counts for a couple of months -- after that you need health-insurance. There are usually bits of the EU countries systems that cover their citizens for emergency care on holiday and so on, up to ninety days a year for my own insurance, which costs more than my mortgage.

Edited to add: Evidence of insurance is usually a credit-card sized plastic pass thing which can give access to insurance-validity information from any hospital etc. I carry mine every time I go out of the door. It is also obligatory to carry ID at all times (driving-licence, foreigner's residence-status card etc.). It is also obligatory to be registered as living at a specific address, which is checked by local-authorities. The whole system is fairly tight, much more detailled than the UK, but I'm sure a lot of criminals get around the rules nevertheless.


One wonders how the capital costs of treating foreigners in the UK is funded. Not the direct treatment costs, but the indirect costs of providing the capacity to treat them.

Take the case of EU citizens in UK - 6+ million have been granted residence here. Even if we (suspend disbelief and) assume that there is 100% recovery of their direct UK healthcare costs by the EHIC system, this doesn't budget for the cost in providing the capacity to provide that healthcare.

E.g. if Herman the German is injured in an RTA in North Wales, he does not lie there waiting for an ambulance to dispatched from Berlin to take him home to a German hospital - he is scraped up by the UK emergency services and NHS. Whilst his A&E bill might be met by EHIC, what happens to the ambulance cost, crew pensions, bedspace, NHS staff recruitment, share of the hospital infrastructure cost, et al?

Most countries absorb the cost associated with limited numbers of foreigners, but in this case the number is so huge that it represents at least 10% of the (theoretical) population.

UK NHS currently has to accommodate an extra 6 million people in its capacity plans, yet there is not a whisper about how this is managed because it falls under the taboo subjects of population, immigration and the cost of welfare.
 
Have a “truly informative” - I didn’t know that.

However, this is an example of where the UK cuts its nose off to spite its face at times.

If say a Canadian vetinerary surgeon wanted to go and practice in the UK for 5 years with his wife, he needs a visa, and so does his wife. He needs to pay £624/yr for each. So that’s £6,240 on top of his application fees of £1,742 for himself and his wife. If she wants to work, she’ll need her own visa too. They still have to pay tax and NI on their wages when they arrive.

Knocking on £10K just to get in legally and above board.

In the meantime, if you’re not white, you can just rock up in the middle of the Channel in a fvcking inflatable boat, and the UK will rescue you, feed and house you and give you money to live on. And not charge you £10K you most likely don’t have. Even if you are white, you might be able to blag being from some Eastern European shithole, all you have to do is throw your passport into the briny.

It makes an absolute mockery of attracting talent, when you’re deterring them from applying with outrageous fees, while on the other hand, hovering up the flotsam in the Channel and rewarding them.
Not sure about Canada, but the UK has mutual recognition schemes with lots of developed countries.

Here in Aus, we have a hybrid scheme of a Medicare levy on our tax bill to pay for the public system and then a private system that is covered by insurance. The low paid and those on benefits etc can access the public system free. Everyone else will pay some sort of co-payment to use the public system.

A Brit coming to Australia on holiday, a temporary residency visa or when applying for permanent residency can access the public system without charge until such time that they become resident for tax purposes.

It’s the same in the opposite direction. An Aussie heading to the UK on a working visa gets free access to the NHS until such time as they become a UK tax payer. I don’t know for sure, but I expect Canada is similar.
 
One wonders how the capital costs of treating foreigners in the UK is funded. Not the direct treatment costs, but the indirect costs of providing the capacity to treat them.

Take the case of EU citizens in UK - 6+ million have been granted residence here. Even if we (suspend disbelief and) assume that there is 100% recovery of their direct UK healthcare costs by the EHIC system, this doesn't budget for the cost in providing the capacity to provide that healthcare.

E.g. if Herman the German is injured in an RTA in North Wales, he does not lie there waiting for an ambulance to dispatched from Berlin to take him home to a German hospital - he is scraped up by the UK emergency services and NHS. Whilst his A&E bill might be met by EHIC, what happens to the ambulance cost, crew pensions, bedspace, NHS staff recruitment, share of the hospital infrastructure cost, et al?

Most countries absorb the cost associated with limited numbers of foreigners, but in this case the number is so huge that it represents at least 10% of the (theoretical) population.

UK NHS currently has to accommodate an extra 6 million people in its capacity plans, yet there is not a whisper about how this is managed because it falls under the taboo subjects of population, immigration and the cost of welfare.


My bold this is a bit old but worth a read as knowing our useless NHS management it's probably got worse ...
snip "New figures show the NHS is paying out millions more for EU healthcare than it is claiming back from EU countries.
In what one MP described as a "scandalous failure", it has emerged tha
t the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Brits' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU, even though there are significantly more EU citizens in the UK than UK citizens in the EU."
 
My bold this is a bit old but worth a read as knowing our useless NHS management it's probably got worse ...
snip "New figures show the NHS is paying out millions more for EU healthcare than it is claiming back from EU countries.
In what one MP described as a "scandalous failure", it has emerged tha
t the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Brits' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU, even though there are significantly more EU citizens in the UK than UK citizens in the EU."
AIUI this is because the NHS can't reclaim A&E/GP charges from EU countries because the UK doesn't charge anyone for A&E/GP services
 

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