How Prepared Were You For Op TELIC?

Discussion in 'Iraq (Op TELIC)' started by Ard-Elly-o, Dec 15, 2003.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. I was in Gulf 1 and although we only got 1 months notice before deploying, we trained non stop for that month. I am regular and have served in a TA unit and wonder how prepared the individual TA soldier was for Op TELIC bearing in mind the following:
    Regular CFT is 8 miles, TA CFT is 4 miles.
    To get a TA bounty you only have to attempt ITDs and pass any 2 out of the following 5. CFT, F Aid, NBC, Recognition, APWT.
    Personally I think it verges on criminal negligence not to fully train the TA up to full Regular Soldier standard before they deployed. Is this just another of Mr Hoons cheap options? I have no criticism of the TA, just a lot of respect but you don't get the same product with 28-32 MTDs a year compared with 365 and MOD have a duty of care to train personnel prior to sending them on Ops!
     
  2. I don't know what unit you've been working with, but we have to pass all to get our bounty!

    You show me the squaddie that actually is trained 365 days a year? You take off weekends, leave and days sitting round when there's nothing to do on the park. Not to mention all that time knocked off early and the sports afternoons out 'shopping'. I'm not saying that you get as much training as you really need in the TA, it's a part time organisation with a part time commitment (but it's still committed) and very few actually do the minimum required number of MTD's a year. But for you to say that a regular does 365 'MTD's' is showing that you are really professional at talking bo11ocks.

    Remember that the TA seem to manage to get the job done when needed and without them you could be down to less than a year between op tours.... that'll up your 'MTD's' huh?
     
  3. Firstly i'll echo what PP says - ITD's are not an attempt only thing in my unit. When i deployed on Telic 1, I received 12 days notice - so if i wasn't up to standard at that point - there was no way i was going to be!
    After Chilwell, it was onto the holding unit for 5 days. Although we covered all the ITD subjects - apparently they didn't count as ITD ticks in boxes. The strange thing was we couldn't leave the holding unit until we were deemed to have passed the subjects and been signed off.

    We don't get as much training as we need, there's no doubt about that, but a lot of TA answered the call and acquitted themselves well.
     
  4. Prep was very poor. I only got 25 rounds on my SA80 and had not fired a weapon on iron sights for years (only Inf were entitled to SUSATS according to Chilwell). In the end it was not zeroed properly and I had to remember to aim off if I fired it.

    No CFT at all !

    One thing that was missing was contact drills. No one had a clue what to do if contacted, just made it up as we went along.

    If the Health & Safety Exec took a look at the post mobilisation preparation of the TA, then some serious questions would be raised - but of course they won't :roll:

    However, of all the NDs in theatre - how many were by Regulars?

    In closing, not at all the package I expected when going on Ops.
     
  5. CALM DOWN AND READ WHAT I SAID BEFORE JUMPING IN THINKING THAT ANOTHER ARAB IS SLAGGING OFF THE TA!!!

    I ASKED THE QUESTION IF THE TA THINK THEY WERE FULLY TRAINED BEFORE DEPLOYING ON TELIC WHICH HAS TURNED OUT TO BE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BALL GAME COMPARED TO ANOTHER CUSHY PEACE ENFORCEMENT NUMBER LIKE BOSNIA OR KOSOVO.

    JUST MY POINT!! ALL TA UNITS ARE DIFFERENT AND IT IS UP TO COs AND BDE COMDS HOW TO DETERMINE WHETHER A TA SOLDIER IS BOUNTY QUALIFIED AND FIT FOR ROLE(FFR) IF 2 WEEKS AT CHILLWELL IS ENOUGH, THATS GREAT!!
    [
    OF COURSE THE REGULAR SQUADDIE ISN'T TRAINED FOR 365 DAYS A YEAR, BUT THEY ARE EMPLOYED AS SO CALLED "PROFESSIONALS" 365 DAYS A YEAR. DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE CRAP STANDARD OF SOLDIERING IN MY REGULAR CORPS!

    I STARTED THIS BECAUSE TWO CORPS TA MATES OF MINE (1 WO2, 1 SGT)RETURNED FROM TELIC WITH GLOWING REPORTS. BUT BOTH OF THEM SAID THEY WERN'T MENTALY OR PHYSICALLY PREPARED AND FELT THEY LACKED THE MILITARY TRAINING TO DEAL WITH SITUATIONS THEY FACED OUT THERE!!.

    I THINK THE TA ARE ONE OF THE BEST ASSETS THIS COUNTRY HAS, BUT THE OLD RULES OF 90 DAYS TO MOBILISE ALLOWED SUFFICIENT TIME TO TRAIN THEM TO A COMMON STANDARD BEFORE DEPLOYING. I JUST THINK THAT SOMEONE IS MISSING THE POINT IF THEY SEND A PART TIME VOLUNTEER SOLDIER, TO A LIVE OP WITH 2 -3 WEEKS NOTICE. (EITHER MISSING THE POINT OR ABUSING THE TA AS A CHEAP OPTION TO FILL REGULAR GAPS WITHOUT SPENDING THE MONEY TO TRAIN THEM FIRST)

    AS I SAID BEFORE I HAVE NOTHING BUT RESPECT FOR THE TA AND THE COMMITTMENT THEY SHOW! (FINISH WORK ON A FRI NIGHT, GO STRAIGHT TO THEIR TAC AND DEPLOY TO A TRG CAMP, GET BACK ON SUN AND BACK TO WORK ON MON. NO DAYS OFF, SPORTS AFTERNOONS ETC)

    ANYWAY IF YOU ARE ALL SO F****** SENSITIVE THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A REASONABLE DEBATE THEN GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY. (JUST MAKE SURE YOU TURN UP FOR TRAINING!)

    I WAS RECENTLY QUOTED THE FOLLOWING FIGURES:

    TA - ESTABLISHED STRENGTH APPROX 42000?
    TA - ACTUAL STRENGTH APPROX 38000?
    TA - DEEMED DEPLOYABLE APPROX 18000?
    TA - ACTUALLY DEPLOYED THIS YEAR APPROX 12000?








    [/quote]
     
  6. Lads, easy on the knee jerk defensive reactions!

    Ard-Elly-O has brought up a constructive point.

    1. ITDs do not need to be passed, if you are in a unit that insists that you do then you have intelligent forward looking management, which not all units have.

    2. The TA until quite recently has been designed specifically as an organisation which would take 6 months to mobilise en masse. The problem is that the world has moved on and we are now expected to be in theatre in 12 days. So having a qualifications process which includes subjects which aren't covered as they are classed "TTW" or "Transition to War" seems a bit silly.

    3. Fitness is a perennial problem for the TA. Unlike our regular colleagues we don't have time programmed into our working day to go running, to the gym, or to play sport. Now whilst most can keep it up in their free time, inevitably many people struggle to stay as fit as a regular soldier should be (many regular soldiers aren't either, and they have no excuse).

    In summary this is massive problem, and it goes back to a thread I started ages ago I don't know where on this site. What I proposed was that like some of our cousins (the Aussies and I think the Yanks) TA Phase 1 and 2 become a full-time course, so that the standard of basic soldiering is higher.

    This would of course mean a complete change in the nature of the TA, but I think in these times we need to start thinking the unthinkable.
     
  7. Point taken above.I think most of the TA integrated well with their regular counterparts and I for one enjoyed that part of the tour. I was pleased to soldier with some very capable and open minded people. Also pleased to be there when it counted and not shirk my responsibility to the Army.

    As always it comes back to leadership and the commitment to standards by OCs/COs in the TA. So the staff running the 7 day trg package have their work cut out. & days to get the punters to theatre and F**k knows what standard they will get.

    However, my point is - why was I sent to an Operational theatre without the chance to properly zero my weapon?

    So what is the point of passing my APWT each year if when I do it for real, I have to carry a weapon I am not confident of firing?

    Surely the criticism here is of the lead up time for TA mobilisation.
     
  8. msr

    msr LE

    The training of TA soldiers is the responsibility of their unit, not of Chilwell.

    The readiness figures quoted for deployment (e.g. R5/6) are for formed units, not individuals.

    Cheers,
    msr
     
  9. msr - agreed not Chilwell.

    I was thinking more of a minimum package ( say two weeks) post Chilwell to cover the trg gaps that we suffered from. Receiving units should also be more involved in the process.
     
  10. Brothers,

    Not Chilwell's fault.
    Not LAND's fault.
    Not even MOD's fault....
    Politicians were told from the outset how long it would take to effectively activate, train and equip mobilised people in the event of op BUM-IRAQ. The govt would not give the go-ahead when it was reqd, because activation of reservists is a demonstration of strategic intent and a key combat indicator to enemy forces (France, etc). At the time HMG were still committed to trying the UN route to show due process. You'll recall UN SCR 1441 was meant to be the last last chance - until France said - 'not really - we still need another SCR to authorise use of force'.
    When the UN route broke down, only then could we give the order to mobilise...by which time D Day was...pretty close in terms of mobilising our reserves.
    The Defence Chief knew it was bollocks. PJHQ knew it was bollocks. Folk at Chillwell also, who did a good job under the circumstances. But those were the conditions set by our political masters - and despite all, our blokes did a superb job - propaganda aside - down to the innate quality of our toms.
    But no-one thinks for a minute this was the ideal way to do bidness.
    You can, of course, show your support for the decision making process at the next general election!
     
  11. As a ta soldier moblised for telic 3 . 21 days notice to be moblised.day at chillwell then 5days at grantham one day wasted on nbc training when no threat .then 2 weeks in germany where we trained using the knowledge from ncos who had done op finegal (if i here this is how we did it in afganistian one more time i will scream :D ) regular unit basically
    had nothing to do with us. Fitness training seemed more to be about breaking troops than actually improving fitness of those of us who are weak in that department .Then to sheriba the shithole where d&v stopped
    the majority of us from doing ranges or even acclimitising properly .
    The headshed seem to think we are doing a fair job as force protection ok its dull but nesscary job.
    A lot of coy want to leave or at least transfer to a corp as got to be more intresting than staging on as thats all ta going to do on ops .
    Considering all the problems that being in iraq for six months poses for my family and myself i think the army just wanted a body to
    sit in sanger for 6 months and were not intrested if trained or fit for role
    and if i knew then what i know now i would have tried to get out of being moblised but at least i got a cheap gerber :lol:
     
  12. Like I said, the problem is cultural. We are not supposed to be ready to fight the zulus in 12 days. I can't think of a regular unit who could do that, except perhaps the roulement Battalion.

    The point is unless we become some sort of quick reaction force, then no matter how good Chilwell is, they will always have a problem delivering soldiers into theatre (an environment where no one is particularly interested in remedial training) with the requisite skills.

    In the end we will end up cuffing it as per usual.
     
  13. Woody - whatever you may think about anything, and I have certain sympathies with your views, kindly realise that you are not sitting in a sangar 'cos someone wants a bum on a seat but because there is a very necessary and very important job to be done protecting the rest of people within your perimeter. Get it wrong and people may die, - not get pissed off or have a good whinge - but die. If that doesn't motivate you try joining the scout movement (at least they have adult leadership).

    Oh and yes I was in your position not so very long ago.
     
  14. Now were getting somewhere with a bit of lively debate. Thanks fellas! (sorry to Plant Pilot and Happy-Sapper if you thought I was having a go, far from it!!)

    The above quote from Hootch is exactly the point I mean. Confidence is the a vital component for any soldier on Ops.
    Confidence in ability. (Gained from thorough training!)
    Confidence in equipment. (Gained by HMG procuring the best possible equipment, issuing it quickly and efficiently to soldiers and providing the resources for them to train with it under all conditions). Not pandering to the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) when sometimes buying battle proven foreign equipment would be the best option. SA80 v HK wpn system.
    Confidence that the cause is just and supported by the British public.
    Confidence in leadership.
    Without a soldier having confidence in the above how can we achieve the moral component in battle.

    If Hootch's experience is not just a one off, are we really saying it is acceptable to send a British soldier (regular, reservist or TA) on Ops without a properly zeroed weapon!!!???
    Never mind zeroed! How about application of fire from all positions up to 500m. Any soldier, regardless of capbadge or gender should be confident of snap shooting from any position, a head and shoulders target at 200m.
    From 300m+ it gets difficult with iron sights without a lot of training but a good percentage of kills should be expected from the prone position at a static target.

    Here is a recent quote I found on an Army web site:

    The guy who wrote that should be put in charge of something or posted to the treasury!
     
  15. I understand the need and the purpose of my role even though staring
    into an empty field for hours at a time is mind numbingly dull .I just feel
    some officer said we need blokes to do stag so grabbed some ta unit to do it . Dont much care if equipped trained or competent just as long as
    someone in a sanger and someone on gate .
    Hard to see how this tour will keep people in the infantry or even the ta . My self looking to transfer cos dont want to spend another 6 months next year or whenever they can call me up again staging on