How many driving licences does it take to drive ?

Discussion in 'Royal Signals' started by andyb264, Feb 27, 2005.

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  1. This is something that really bugs me and numerous other personel in my unit, firstly a driving licence, then an FMT, i can understand that, but then comes in the politics:another permit to drive ? plated vehicles, another one for ?? plated vehicles.Is there any continuity in the British Army any more, or are we just expected to put extensions to our 'top lefts'
    Is this just the face of the modern army, or an alarming new trend towards ever increasing bullshit?
     
  2. All you need to drive an army vehicle is the appropriate driving license, an FMT600 (or FMT600A if you have to drive on active airfields) with the correct annotations for the vehicle driven.

    What else is there? Unless of course you are in 260 Sqn (or 628 Tp as I think it may be now) in which case the vehicles may be NATO, not British Army and a NATO driving permit is required.

    Anything else is a local requirement and as such you would have to blame the local unit/garrison, not the army.

    Or could this just be another Sigs winge thread because you are bored on a Sunday afternoon??
     
  3. :D Maybe he means that you need a FAM Course to drive a FFR, then you need a seperate FAM course to drive a FFR with trailer, then you need a FAM course to drive a FFR with trailer over cross country, then you need a FAM for a Pinz Gauer, hope by now you are getting the point !!!!!!!

    Each course takes 2 weeks !!!! How much does it need to FAM a vehicle !! I don't do a FAM each time I jump in a different civilian car !!!! Yes it is madness and yet another reason why the army is getting worse !!!!

    No I am not bored on a sunday as I have the arrse to fill my day !!!!! :D

    Yes I am a scaley and not whinging just excercising my democratic right to express my opinions !!!!! :mrgreen:
     
  4. :D Maybe he means that you need a FAM Course to drive a FFR, then you need a seperate FAM course to drive a FFR with trailer, then you need a FAM course to drive a FFR with trailer over cross country, then you need a FAM for a Pinz Gauer, hope by now you are getting the point !!!!!!!

    Each course takes 2 weeks !!!! How much does it need to FAM a vehicle !! I don't do a FAM each time I jump in a different civilian car !!!! Yes it is madness and yet another reason why the army is getting worse !!!!

    No I am not bored on a sunday as I have the arrse to fill my day !!!!! :D

    Yes I am a scaley and not whinging just excercising my democratic right to express my opinions !!!!! :mrgreen:
     
  5. bored enought to post twice apparently....

    :roll:

    Whose arse fills your day? I also wonder why you feel you need to tell us?
     
  6. Yes, in todays army, where the phrase 'duty of care' is banded about ad nauseum some places prefer to have the Belt 'n' Braces attitude of 'better ot over FAM than to under FAM'. I can understand, having seen the results of LSIs on units that everyone pointed to everyone else uttering the phrase "I thought you did it" when they found out that nobody in the unit could legally drive their vehicles.

    In the army, you can learn to drive in a standard car. Nothing wrong with that. And I think you'd find it acceptable that to obtain another class of licence LGV Tracks etc. that more training and another test is in order. That's how it works in civvy street and nobody's worried.

    In the army, you can hold a car licence and legally be able to drive a LR Wolf. However, when the Wolf was first issued, they were crashing all over the place, killing and injuring people in the process. It wasn't the vehicle's faultr, it was the drivers assuming that the extra power meant that it was supposed to drive fast on the autobahn. The power was added to inprove the X-country handling and people were getting hurt and killed, not to mention the cost of vehicles and property. All due to insufficient FAM trg on the vehicle.

    An even better example is that you can get your tracks license by driving around a course on the square at 5 Kmh in a D6 Bulldozer. Leagally you are then allowd to drive a Chally II on the roads. Is that a good idea?

    As for:-
    If you are doing FAM trg on a vehicle that is expected to drive cross country and has the capability to tow a trailer, all of that, plus servicing, breakdown, recovery and any specialized kit carried (looking after the radio batterys on an FFR etc.) should be covered in the FAM for the veh. The Rover and the PG are different vehicles and so would require different FAM courses.

    What some units are doing is trying to shortcut the training, not covering the training objectives and finding that they have to redo the course at a later date when they decide that X-country or trailers are required.

    Could be a case of typical scally organization (or not) to me.
     
  7. Yup, well it was a good idea for me anyway. I did my tracked licence in a D6D at Chepstow, then years later when I transferred to REME I spent a week in the pub, whilst the rest of my course learnt to drive a 432.:):):)

    TTFN

    BFG
     
  8. I can see andyb's point. It is frustrating when you have a licence and you cannot drive a vehicle before you have been 'famed' on it. But until somebody with some balls gets in thats the way we have to go!!
     
  9. Nobody is ever going to get those 'b4lls' RH. If some officer, NCO or MT rep decides to sign you up for a vehicle and you've not had the FAM trg on that vehicle, they are opening themselves up for a whole heap of hurt.

    When somebody trashes a vehicle because he wasn't taught some vehicle specific detail (Simple example, where the dip stick is or the oil filler) and he's stood there with an FMT600 that says 'Cpl Smiff' trained him on that vehicle, who's going to get the krap? On one occasion possibly the scrote. But if a pattern starts to form, or all the scrotes see a get out of jail clause, it'll be Smiff tapping the boards. And even if he doesn't end up charged for the problem, his reputation as an instructor and NCO will be up the swanny.

    A good instructor can sense when it's okay to take the odd short-cut but the essencials of each different vehicle have to be taught. Nobody wants to be sat next to a young inexperienced driver when he utters those scary words "I might be a little iffy on this, I've never driven one before". The systems are there to protect the army, the drivers the vehicles and for the safety of the goods/people to be transported and the general public.. Stick to them.
     
  10. C Coy or 87 Sqn?


    As for the FMT600 and the familiarisation trg..

    It <allegedly> is to satisfy the insurance criteria laid down by the underwriters? The Army/MOD have signed up stipulating that the drivers of military vehicles will have training on each vehicle that they are required to drive, especially considering the fact we have so many kids driving trucks these days, when civi law is 21yrs old, it isnt too much to ask really.
    The FMT600 is the ticket to say that you are insured.

    I remember the majority of that after having a one way convo off an RMTO when i rocked up on his camp in an overloaded 14 tonner with only 8 tonner on the FMT.. :roll: Bloody RCT.
     
  11. It's not that, as MOD doesn't insure military vehicles. We underwrite our own risks, effectively acting as our own insurer, with losses paid out of the overall defence budget. Assumptions are made on the losses that are expected each year, in exactly the same way as an insurance company assesses risk and sets an insurance price accordingly. The only difference is that the insurance company has to have a bond (to ensure they can still pay out in a bad year) and has to add an element for profit. Some white fleet vehicles are treated differently, but pretty much everything that is green, from landrovers to tanks and combat aircraft, has no insurer beyond MOD itself.
     
  12. Then wait to you get to Germany.

    Before you can drive you have to do your matrix test on the computer. Then there is the practical conversion, ie some hours driving on the road in a left hand drive vehicle. Prefereable one you're already fammed to drive because you can't be converted on a vehicle you're not fammed on!

    That's if you can get it through the Trogs thick skull that just coz it says in JSP 341 that a Defence Driving Instructor must sign the FMT 600, it doesn't say that he has to carry out the training - a competent person can do that.

    Then factor in the fact that your matrix test is only valid for 3 years - even though your wife's one is valid for 5 years because she only drives your car. Yes, it's true the RLC say BFG matris test valid 3 years but BFG licencing authority happy at 5 years!

    Now factor in some Bde Master Drivers recommending an annual matrix test and you've got a recipe for most of the Unit being non-deployable for lack of drivers. Can you really see a Master Driver turning up on the LSI at a UK unit and saying that anyone who hasn't taken the theory test in the last 12 months can't drive a mil vehicle? He'd be run out of camp! So why do we have to suffer this crapola in BFG?

    Most NIGs coming out of the Black Hole of Leconfield come fammed up on WOLF and 4 ton DAF. How many DAFs you seen on the Autobahns? My unit has 60 Bedfords and 1 DAF. Add in the fact that in JSP 341 it doesn't say Bedford or DAF it says TRUCK,CARGO, 4ton and you can see why the MT Sgt puts his body armour on before he comes to my office!!!!!!
     
  13. So then, has the point got across here, well i have been over 21 for a few years now(i was 21 in the first gulf war) i live in BFG, and i do agency driving for which i require no FMT, no FAMS training, no night driving, no cross country driving, no conversion course, no BFG permit.......etc. I have various catagories on my driving licence and that is good for police forces world wide(with insurance obviously!!!)
     
  14. That's as may be, and it's up to the civvy firm you're doing the agency driving for if you are up to the standards they require. I'll bet they aren't even interested if you've been driving while at work (army) or for how long, (If they don't ask they aren't responsible) and as long as you've got the cat of licence they need for you to drive their truck, they are legally covered with the minimum of expence to themselves. Of course they don't need an FMT, BFG permit or cross country driving (unless you get very lost!) but, they should at the very least given you a 'walk round' of the truck, short test drive, explained breakdown proceedures, refueling, tacho, driving hours etc. In short a civvy version of a FAM.


    The army has a 'duty of care'. They have to train you to operate the myriads of different vehicles and equipment so that at the very least you are safe for yourself and others. If you do mess up, you can't turn round and say they didn't tell me how to use it, and if you do, the'll turn round, point to your FMT600 and say either a) yes we did.... or b) you shouldn't have been driving it anyway. They are covered. Good civvy firms do this as well, together with fire courses, first aid courses H&S courses and ADR courses.

    Any firm who can't employ (or doesn't want to employ) enough full time drivers at the moment in Germany is on a saving spree. With that the case then they are likely to apply the law to the bare minimum.

    And as a further point, I hope you are declaring your outside employment to your Sqn/Regt.
     
  15. Regardless of Corps or regiment all soldiers are taught the basics of weopan handling. After They are released to the real world. Would you allow these soldiers to use any rifle/gun they sowished just because they have passed the Basic APWT. No we dont and it is right we should do the same with Vehicles.
    But the Familirisation period should reflect length youve held your licence.

    SK