How low can you sink?

[PartTimePongo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2892933.stm

In a passionate speech denouncing the Iraqi regime Mr Blair said two dead British soldiers shown on Arabic television on Wednesday had been "executed".

Thank you Prime Minister, I'm sure the need to get that political message out, to show solidarity with our American comrades, who had trrops "executed" too, will be a great comfort to the families of the dead soldiers.

Maybe it's just me, but I would prefer, if my loved ones had died, to be told "Killed in action" not "They died on their knees with their hands behind their heads"

I'm sorry. if anyone feels the need to flame me, crack on. On one hand, we have Hoon banging on about "sensitivities" when POW photos are shown, we then have on world wide TV, the announcement, that Bristish solders have been murderd in cld bllod

Sorry I'm realkly fcuking upset

 

[Lifesaver]

Pongo - I agree wholeheartedly with you.

It's an absolute disgrace.

Friday's Daily Mirror say the lads were -

'Heros who died in Combat'

Too bluddy true, they were - my heart goes out to their families.

God Bless Lads.

 

[PartTimePongo]

Sorry, emotional and upset when I typed the first post. What I meant to say was

Congratulations Mr. Blair, with one short step, you're no better than the Iraqi propagandists.

If the guys were executed, that is a matter for an investigation, not for supposition, which you're trying to take maximum advantage of.

What is the point apart from the political smartie points, in announcing they were "executed"?

Their families are upset enough, without you making it worse by telling the families, they died less than a Soldiers death

Roll on the next election, so I can vote this tool out of office

 

[PartTimePongo]

Mirror Front page changed

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12783733&method=full&siteid=50143

http://www.express.co.uk/story.html?story=2&r=31316725545587632


OUR LUKE WAS NOT EXECUTED


Mar 28 2003


By Stephen Moyes and James Hardy

 
THE heartbroken sister of ambushed soldier Luke Allsopp insisted last night: "My brother was not executed."

Nina Allsopp hit out at "lies" surrounding his death.

Grieving Nina - 29 today - said: "We have been told by the Army that Luke died in action.

"The Colonel from his barracks came around to our house to tell us he was not executed. Luke's Land Rover was ambushed and he died instantly.

"The Colonel told us he was doing what he could to set the record straight. We are very angry.

"It makes a big difference to us knowing that he died quickly. We can't understand why people are lying about what happened.

"It must be a mistake. It's important to us that people know the truth. That people know what really happened."

No prizes for guessing what's on The Suns front page

 

[kronos]

Urge everyone to write to their MPs and let them know how pissed you are at what Blair has said, flood IDS with letters and lets try and get a statement from Blair retracting his comments or at least demand the forensic evidence to back his statement.  We cannot allow our politicians to grandstand like this.  The civil servant who vetoed this statement needs to be sacked.  In reality I know that it is unlikely that Blair would ever make a public statement retracting what he said but if enough people wrote complaining about this vacuous comment it may make them think twice in the future.  The truth is always manipulated  by politicians whatever the situation and quite frankly, for the sake of the parents/relatives/friends,I am sure the truth could have been manipulated in a more positive light in this instance.

 

[PartTimePongo]

What?

Go back and read what the people above you have written Bint, including the sister of one of the dead soldiers.

 

[Mr Happy]

Sorry Bint, don't agree with what you've said, I don't believe the Mirror (nor the Col. that rocked up to see the families - what else was he going to say?) when they say how the lads died.

Lastly, Blair I guess, has no way of confirming how those two guys died and I hope they died fighting their attackers and as somebody said, a soldiers death.

RIP

 

[PartTimePongo]

Beneficially affects existing PW's?

Ok, how about another scenario

"Blimmin hell Abdul, Blair says we're slotting prisoners. Oh well, might as well hang for a sheep as a lamb"

The distressing pictures I saw on Al-Jazeera of the US convoy ambush, clearly showed blood on the doors of the Deuce and a half. If you are going to engage a truck or a landrover, what is your point of aim?

Blair used that statement for political mileage.

 

[Mr Happy]

Bint, lets assume for a moment that I don't look at the bigger picture and let us assume you alone have this ability...  

What Blair deems nesc. to do or not do should still be governed by decency and I'm sorry, but if I got killed I'd be mighty pis*ed off if my mum, who is, by the way, a lovely lady, got to hear that I was executed by these feyadene saddam scum.

The original post by PTP, I believe calls it right.  

We are British and among many things this means that (a) we win wars and (b) we follow the rules as gentlemen.  Which means that we don't resort to scare mongering and motivating troops through fear (of execution) - how would you feel if your brother/partner heard this 'execution' news and vowed never to be taken alive when in reality he might be treated well as a PW - thus dying in a useless battle when he would in fact be repatriated at the end of the war alive.

 

[PartTimePongo]

The point.

Blair accused the Iraqis of executing British POW's

The second point. They executed the soldiers, but left the civilian contractors alone. Civilians in military vehicles. The Iraqis could have slotted the kenyans there and then, and accused them of being "spies" more in line with what we've been told about the Iraqi way of doing things.

The third point.

I'm sure the families of these brave men, who have been told they were missing, then that there was hope they were E+E, then told that they might be dead, then confirmed that they were dead, then have the PRIME MINISTER announce to the world that they were EXECUTED, has really helped then in the grieving process. Any feelings the families had, that their men had given their lives for a better Iraq, or had died courageously were crushed right there. What an awful vision, their men executed, in some sh1tty street by a mob they were trying to help.

The families were told, their men died in action, They were sad, grieving but proud, that their men at least went down fighting.

Now Blair says they were executed. Has Blair received the forensic evidence to support this statement?

How exactly, is this inflamatory statement of benefit in the wider picture? Blair very succesfully, made the MOD and the Colonel of their Regiment into liars. Their are now guys in the Gulf , angry as hell (A correct and proper reaction) who may well take unjustified risks to themselves and their oppos, seeking revenge, for a soundbite

Yes, I can see the benefit in the wider war now. I can see the benefit to the iraqi ministry of propaganda.

 

[foggy_balla]

My own regiment has lost over 250 of its serving and ex-members in a "shitty little war" over the last 30-odd years.  The vast majority of these brave men and women were murdered while off-duty:  Sleeping in their beds, dropping their kids off to school, some abducted and murdered in cold blood.  A very small number of them actually died while in uniform, fewer still while "facing the enemy".  For the families of those that died on duty, I'm sure their grief is no less than of those who were not.  Regardless of how they died, to their families, and those that knew and loved them they were heroes.  
Be it the backstreets of Belfast, the jungle of Sierra Leone or in the dust and sand of Iraq, that our lads may fall.  It is often of some comfort to their families that they died while doing their duty as soldiers.  How fcuking dare Tony Blair make such an unsubstantiated statement as to the nature of their death.  It is not for him to comment.  We've plenty of ways to demonise the enemy without having to add to the grief of the families of those heroes that have fallen in this most recent conflict.  Shame on you Blair
I'm not the most religious of blokes, but my prayers are with those families right now.  RIP blokes.

 

[PartTimePongo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2896415.stm

 

[Baddass]

I wish that the media and those who make use of it as a vehicle to convey their beliefs/propaganda/rhetoric/facts/fiction, would cease using the word EXECUTED when referring to the MURDER of PoW's.  PoW's are not EXECUTED, prisoners convicted of murder and other serious offences are (in some countries).  These men, if indeed they were killed after being disarmed were MURDERED, as were the yanks who are alleged to have been killed in that convoy, where their fitter section was partly taken.

I'm not sure whether to believe that our lads were MURDERED or not.   I didn't see the footage of their remains, so cannot comment (did anyone see it?)but head shots (pardon the callousness of that terminlogy) are commonly sustained in attacks on vehicles.  Nobody aims at the doors.  They aim at what they can see through the glass.  The head and shoulders.  An ambush on a Wolf would have been easy.  I'm sure there are a few of you out there who have often wondered how you would return fire from the front passenger seat of  an enclosed Wolf.  It's nigh on impossible, particularly when you're wearing helmet, CBA and patrol vest.  You can't see bugger all from the left and right rear either, as there isn't enough space in the front passenger seat to move around and even less if you're the driver.   Consider it the next time you're in one, you'll see my point.

It just might be that they did die in an ambush.  The distance the bodies were found from the vehicle can also be logically explained.

It just might be that they were murdered.  The Arabs have never been a sentimental race.  

It must be terrible for those families.

 

[mario]

First of all I would like to express my deepest sympathy for the families of the very brave soldiers who have lost their lives whilst serving their country.

Secondly, I must express my utter disgust and outrage at Mr bLiar for his total misuse of authority.  What he has done regarding this tragedy, is unforgivable.  I hope that people remember when this is over, the way he used this incident to try to score political brownie points and, as usual, spin the facts to suit his self interest.  The man is scum.

Whatever the facts are, he should have thought of the mens families first and foremost, and not his own political career.  Unfortunately, nothing this ******** does surprises me anymore.

I'm sorry.

 

[notinmyname]

PTP
You know my feelings on this campaign, but I cannot let this thread go without showing my utmost support for the families of the men who have lost their lives. I too watched the words of Blair, and my blood boiled at the insensitive way he portrayed their death, as you say it will be down to an investigation, as to the whys and where for's. But this is not the type of situation where a politician try’s to get brownie points; this was in my eyes a national disgrace. I believe that no soldiers should be used as political tools in their death, and a swift and personal apology should now be announced not just to the families but to the public as well   .

 

[Exmarine]

I am sorry old boy, but this is war.

No exercise, No PC..........this is the end result....it aint nice

That’s the way it is.

The UK and others etc has turned a blind eye to Russian Soldiers having their throats cut on capture by Chechens...the big world aint nice.

Chris

 

[mario]

Take your point ex-marine, but the fact that our own prime minister tried to gain the political high ground by exploiting this incident, with total disregard for the families of the men involved, makes it even more of an outrage.

Whatever the horrors of war, the mens families should be protected from it where ever possible.  It was going to be difficult enough for them to get over the tragedy, without having those nagging doubts planted there by an ******** politician, who would piss his pants and run away if he was so much as stared at by an enemy.

Like I said.  The man is scum.

 

[twotones]

To the families that have lost a loved one i have nothing but sympathy.

Until i read this thread i never thought of being executed as being a "cowardly" way to die. What are we saying if you are executed then you must have held your hands up and asked to surrender, only to be "executed". To have been executed by the enemy surely you must have been a fighter/threat/warrior/etc against the enemy. I do not believe that it is the manner of your death that is important, but the fact that you died in the service of others that counts. Are we saying that it is better to die in an enemy ambush than in a helicopter crash because it is more noble!

Of course Tony Blair should'nt have said what he did without evidence, but to "white van man" this is what war is all about, (don't want squaddies living near me, but god bless em when there is a fire strike/ war etc) the only people who care are the soldiers themselves (not forgetting their families) and the politicians who want to score points.

I don't care how i die only that someone from my regiment will go to my relatives look them in the eye and tell them that i died as a soldier, if the truth is different for whatwever reason then i don't care as long as they think that. Surely that is what matters.

If then, they are asked if they could also help the war effort by allowing the PM etc to excercise the truth a little by saying nothing etc, are  they going to say no and have their loved one die in vain for something that should never have happened.

Blairs recent statement has shown (depending on what paper you read) that he either cares more than the average man on the street or that he just dosn't care about service feelings whatever.

Either way he will never be affected, for the rest of us lets get away from a "better" way to die, to the fact that we might have to die (who else will do it for us) but if we do then please let it be for the good of all and not for the good of a few..