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How important is a referendum on the EU to you?

Would you vote for a tory government that did not have a EU referendum pledge in it's manifesto

  • Yes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
ALL ROADS LEAD TO BRUSSELS *CLICKY*

So how important is a referendum to the members of ARRSE?

Would you be willing to vote for a conservative party who did not do the right thing and give the public some self determination?

Has the issue been eclipsed by other events?

Is the inevitable election our last chance to have a say on our land's future in Europe?
 

Command_doh

LE
Book Reviewer
#2
Not very.

As it won't make a blind bit of difference. Our Political 'Masters' have well and truly sold us down the river on the EU already - so much so that we don't know where our Laws start and it's ones end.

Shame, but it's safe to say we are sitting with the EU flagpole rammed firmly and squarely up our arse.
 
#3
Command_doh said:
Not very.

As it won't make a blind bit of difference. Our Political 'Masters' have well and truly sold us down the river on the EU already - so much so that we don't know where our Laws start and it's ones end.

Shame, but it's safe to say we are sitting with the EU flagpole rammed firmly and squarely up our arse.
Intresting.

I see it is not apathy but rather a sense of futility that informs your opinion.

Are we really that brow-beaten?
 
#4
Other events have taken over and I wouldn't put it past ZANU NL to sneak this EU thing through 'under the radar' whilst the media is concentrating on the country spiralling into endless debt.

If the consrvatives didn't put a referendum in their manifesto it would make them just as bad as the current shower. I feel most of this is courtesy of His Tonyness signing on to this just before he left, 'there you go Gordo, this should f*ck things up for you a bit'. Wonder if cyclops will try the same trick just before the next election when he knows he's going to lose anyway.
 
#5
I wouldn't vote for the Conservatives full stop. I don't think they have any answers at all, not to the economy, not to the EU, not to anything. I don't think any of the political parties do.

I'm also deeply of the opinion that rearranging the chairs on the Titanic isn't going to achieve anything. We don't need a new government, we need a new form of government. One which can be held to account on individual issues of national importance, rather than just once every so often.

Our current Parliamentary system is an 18th Century solution to 18th Century problems that's been black-nastied into the 21st Century, its increasingly not fit for purpose.
 
#6
Interesting thought Smart and I think most people would agree with you on that

The population of this country do feel massively removed from party politics, exactly because of the political class but are you ever going to get the political class turkeys to vote for christmas

What alternatives exist or could be put in place
 
#7
smartascarrots said:
I wouldn't vote for the Conservatives full stop. I don't think they have any answers at all, not to the economy, not to the EU, not to anything. I don't think any of the political parties do.

I'm also deeply of the opinion that rearranging the chairs on the Titanic isn't going to achieve anything. We don't need a new government, we need a new form of government. One which can be held to account on individual issues of national importance, rather than just once every so often.

Our current Parliamentary system is an 18th Century solution to 18th Century problems that's been black-nastied into the 21st Century, its increasingly not fit for purpose.
Totally agree.

Is there an example anywhere in the world that even approaches what you allude to here though?
 
#8
I'm probably the only (semi)PRO-EU person here, but then I'm Irish and don't count in this...so why did I post?
 
#10
insert-coin-here said:
petergriffen said:
I'm probably the only (semi)PRO-EU person here, but then I'm Irish and don't count in this...so why did I post?
In the intrest of debate why are you (semi) pro-europe?
Selfish reasons, we are a small not particularly blessed with natural resources Island out in the Atlantic, the only real influence on the World we have is through the EU, treaties/trade deal's ect have the collective bargaining power of 500 million people instead of 4 million (it's the reason why the EU can bargain as an equal with the US/China ect), we have access to the single market, huge deal for us.

The way I look at it is this, in the future there will be most likely 2 perhap's more large/very large power's, US/China maybe India, Brazil ect hundred's of millions even billion's on people, all screaming for resources, the largest country in Europe is Germany, they'll have about 75 million, there will be cities in China with 2/3s that amount, so why would they care what any one EU country think's? we either work together for our benefit, or let other nations make our choices for us, despite it all the UK and Ireland have a hell of a lot more in common with Germany, France Sweden then we have with India or China.

Now I'm not saying the whole EU is some magic happy clappy rainbow of joy, there are problem's...big ones, but you either work to change them for the better, you don't just sit on the sideline's yelling abuse and ranting like at a football match and expect the results to change.



Oh and having been to a few place's out in the boonies, I do have some sense of being European, especially since that's what everyone I met called me, most didn't know where Ireland was, but they knew Europe, got me out of a sticky situation when I was taken for a Yank. :eek:
 
#11
If you want some more of my reason's I'll post later, have to go now.
 
#12
insert-coin-here said:
Is there an example anywhere in the world that even approaches what you allude to here though?
Deliberative Democracy, aka Deliberative Polling. Essentially, it's a large-scale focus group only instead of the usual losers, unemployables and half-wits it's run along the same lines as Jury Service. Most importantly the group have access to the same privileged sources of information that officials do and have experts on hand to explain and answer questions.

Take a look at the bit on 'British Deliberative Polling on the Monarchy' :D . It's open to abuse, true, but less so than our current 'plebs are too thick to make important decisions' system of public planning IMO.

Edited to add: Hell, it even got the municipal government of Chongqing to change policy. If it can get the CCP to respond to the wishes of the poor and powerless, it's got to have something going for it!
 
#13
smartascarrots said:
insert-coin-here said:
Is there an example anywhere in the world that even approaches what you allude to here though?
Deliberative Democracy, aka Deliberative Polling. Essentially, it's a large-scale focus group only instead of the usual losers, unemployables and half-wits it's run along the same lines as Jury Service. Most importantly the group have access to the same privileged sources of information that officials do and have experts on hand to explain and answer questions.

Take a look at the bit on 'British Deliberative Polling on the Monarchy' :D . It's open to abuse, true, but less so than our current 'plebs are too thick to make important decisions' system of public planning IMO.

Edited to add: Hell, it even got the municipal government of Chongqing to change policy. If it can get the CCP to respond to the wishes of the poor and powerless, it's got to have something going for it!
Thanks carrots, me likey velly much.

Yes I can see where abuse could be a problem (for some reason the ending of the film 'the untouchables' springs to mind) but what a fantasic concept!

A commitee of the plebs on issues that directly concern them sounds a lot closer to democracy than what we have now.

How intresting it would be if a party such as UKIP or the glib dumbs became advocates of such a notion.
It would mean that a party that is not entirely 'fit for task' (all of them as you rightly point out) could become a viable voting option.
 
#14
Im pro EU, can do us alot of good, if we leave and once we get out of the sandy places we will fall into obscourity, as petergriffin said for me its selfish reasons too. The EU is the next big thing and honestly i can see a "merge" within the next 30-50 years once the China/US debacle is over and everyone is screaming for recources, even though we are the hardest kids on the block were fcuked if we get ganged up on 8) . I see myself as British but as an European too just like an german sees themself as german first and European second, and i want to keep it that way. If we leave it going to be a bad thing for us.
 
#15
petergriffen said:
insert-coin-here said:
petergriffen said:
I'm probably the only (semi)PRO-EU person here, but then I'm Irish and don't count in this...so why did I post?
In the intrest of debate why are you (semi) pro-europe?
Selfish reasons, we are a small not particularly blessed with natural resources Island out in the Atlantic, the only real influence on the World we have is through the EU, treaties/trade deal's ect have the collective bargaining power of 500 million people instead of 4 million (it's the reason why the EU can bargain as an equal with the US/China ect), we have access to the single market, huge deal for us.

The way I look at it is this, in the future there will be most likely 2 perhap's more large/very large power's, US/China maybe India, Brazil ect hundred's of millions even billion's on people, all screaming for resources, the largest country in Europe is Germany, they'll have about 75 million, there will be cities in China with 2/3s that amount, so why would they care what any one EU country think's? we either work together for our benefit, or let other nations make our choices for us, despite it all the UK and Ireland have a hell of a lot more in common with Germany, France Sweden then we have with India or China.

Now I'm not saying the whole EU is some magic happy clappy rainbow of joy, there are problem's...big ones, but you either work to change them for the better, you don't just sit on the sideline's yelling abuse and ranting like at a football match and expect the results to change.



Oh and having been to a few place's out in the boonies, I do have some sense of being European, especially since that's what everyone I met called me, most didn't know where Ireland was, but they knew Europe, got me out of a sticky situation when I was taken for a Yank. :eek:
Thanks peter,I was expecting somthing along those lines.

Personally I am not rabidly or blindly anti european but I have massive misgivings about the whole set up within european government and administration.

The EU in it's current guise is far to close to the worst types of government europe has seen in the last 100 years for my liking.

If the Brussles ogliarch became even vaugely accountable and democratic then perhaps a lot of peoples fears over the superstate could be soothed.

OFC too many greedy and self intrested people in one place is not the best breeding ground for the change that is needed.
 
#16
insert-coin-here said:
How intresting it would be if a party such as UKIP or the glib dumbs became advocates of such a notion.
It would mean that a party that is not entirely 'fit for task' (all of them as you rightly point out) could become a viable voting option.
Personally, I see Party Politics at best as one of the maggots infesting the rotting corpse of UK democracy and at worst as the primary cause of death. Our MPs are supposed to be the people chosen from their localities to represent the interests of that locality before the nation as a whole. Thanks to the Party system they're nothing of the sort. Quite the reverse.

Any change to improve governmental accountability has to include a drastic curtailing of the party system - preferably it's abolition, and the levers of patronage with it. We can do without Jim Hacker's 'greasy pole', thank you very much.
 
#17
I am anti European, but as I have said before it is instinctive rather than based on an intellectual argument.

The reason? Has there BEEN an intellectual argument about Europe since ooh I dunno - 1990? If there has, I've missed it and I feel dienfranchised. Ergo, my kneejerk (10 years or so!) reaction is to say "No".

To carry on Smarties comment I think the issue is the Party system. Its a false edifice on all sides of the fence with compromise and weakening being the order of the day. Hell - Europe is the Conservatives third rail - touch it and you die.

I don't want to vote for Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dem or Plaid Cymru - I want to vote for the chap or Chapesse whose views most closely reflect my own - and know that once he or she gets into Parliament that he or she will not be "whipped" to change his/her vote.

The word of the day is Disenfranchised. I think all of the British Electorate feels it to a greater or lesser degree.
 
#18
Would agree with comments about the non-democratic form of government in the EU, as it is something I keep prating about.
I am of the opinion that ALL major decisions of the EU should be subject to referendum, as it is we who have to live with the decisions. If this makes the progress slower, or does not conform to what the politicians think is best for us then what a shame, but that is democracy at work. Why are we running breakneck towards a system/superstate that has not been properly debated with the people? We have simply been told what is best for us, which way to vote, and the whole thing rigged anyway. Democracy does not work that way.

Agree with Carrots that our system needs an update, though not a great deal. I suggest that it is more the way we choose the people who rule us that needs a big overhaul. To paraphrase the Hitch-Hikers Guide, ' Those who most desire the positions of power should, per se, be the last to be entrusted with that power.'

Perhaps we could take ideas from the greeks in that the rulers are chosen from a lottery, for a given period and then barred from office for a given period. Firstly though a constituency would have to vote for a given number of candidates from that constituency who would then be subjected to the lottery. Or even vice versa.

I like the Deliberative Democracy idea, though we come down to the who controls the experts and provides their information?
Perhaps it could be applied a bit like Rousseau's idea in that local power is devolved into small communities who vote on their issues. For bigger issues their representative could be sent to a DD grouping and he then returns to debate/inform his bigger group. Starting as a group of experts each teaches/debates with a group who then go on to instruct/debate with a group at alower level until the topic is diseminated completely.
Slow? With all our technology and transport available today? Perhaps not. Not immediate, but allows for the important things to be completely and democratically debated.

We need to change our political class, if they like power and want to get rich then they can do something else. I am tired of being regarded as a complete turnip-head (though I may well be) by politicians who are patently saying one thing and doing another so they can have fun and make millions for themselves and frinds and masters.
We need a return to democracy.
 
#19
I am British.
I was born British and I will die British.
I will never be a "European" no matter what any politician tells me.
If the tories promise the Referendum as they have said (as did Labour funnily enough) then I would probably vote for them but that would be the only reason.
I have absolutely no faith in our political system, it only serves those who have hitched themselves to the gravy train.
Corruption is common place, little things like the Cash for Honours incedent are not even remarkable and they fukkers aren't even embarrased when they are caught out fiddling expenses.
Parliament is rotten and the time for change is long past.
Personally I will not stand for an EU Constitution (by whatever name) imposed without the consent of the people of this country.
Succesive politicians with only their own interests in mind have ripped the heart out of the country I hold so dear. At some point they must pay for what they have done.

I suspect that as the "credit crunch" really starts to bite the lies and deciet pedalled by politicians may turn round kick them up the backside. I feel strongly enough that I would be out on the street with a pitchfork along with the rest
 
#20
insert-coin-here said:
Command_doh said:
Not very.

As it won't make a blind bit of difference. Our Political 'Masters' have well and truly sold us down the river on the EU already - so much so that we don't know where our Laws start and it's ones end.

Shame, but it's safe to say we are sitting with the EU flagpole rammed firmly and squarely up our arse.
Interesting.

I see it is not apathy but rather a sense of futility that informs your opinion.

Are we really that brow-beaten?
Yep. The juggernaut that is the EU has progressed enormously over the decades and mocked democracy at every step. It's a long term strategy and whether it takes ten or a hundred more years, we will be dragged into the one state Europe that has always been the plan. The inertia behind the EU project is massive and no individual state is going to be allowed to stall it. Ireland may have been brave enough to stand up and bleat but you can be certain that they'll find a way around the 'problem'.

Look at the development of the EU in the past, at the lies and deceit that have marked every significant step forward and you'll recognise that we are not considered bright enough to make our own decisions.

I'm not convinced that it's a bad idea, but I don't think that this corrupt and self indulgent monster is what the original architects had in mind.
 

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