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How I would restructure the British Army

Irlsgt and goon_bde, you ask why couldn't infantry soldiers be chefs or clerks.....Because they'd get threaders and leave, or do the job to the lowest standard possible. A lad joins the Corps to become a RM Commando, serves in a Commando unit as a GD marine (rifleman) and then, after approximately 12 months, enters the "ping bracket" where he is liable to compulsory specialisation, most likely into certain pinch point trades such as those already listed. Whilst the fulfillment of these drafts is essential in order to retain any sort of self sufficiency for the unit, as im sure you appreciate it does not sit well with Mne Harry Black who joined up to be a commando, not chef, clerk,driver etc. Consequently (and quite understanably) morale suffers, as does productivity - at CTCRM Lympstone where most of the clerical work is done by Writers from the RN, pay fcuk ups are few and far between and for the most part quickly resolved (or were before introduction of JPA)....however, go to Mne Black in a Commando unit who never wanted to be a clerk, hates his job and is counting down the days until he is released from his branch and able to do a job he chooses to again (or indeed until he goes outside, as he's out his chit in as soon as he received his ping order) and i wonder how effectively it gets dealt with...
Obviously the needs of the service come first and overall it works, however with your suggestions on how to restructure the army you have the luxury of having people who join with the intention of being a clerk, driver, chef, signaller etc - in a moment of clarity and maturity which wont happen again for a while, there is nothing wrong with that - they join the army, and do a job they chose to do, and i suspect do it better than if you began pinging Pte Snodgrass who joined to be an infantryman but then gets told he is to serve within his Btn as a chef.
 
irlsgt said:
CDS
HQ Land, Adjutant General, Support
PJHQ
Divisions of Infantry
Garrison HQs
District HQs
Operational Divisional HQs
Regional Divisional HQs
Operational Brigade HQs
Regional Brigade HQs
Unit HQs (Battalion level)
Regimental HQs

CDS - Not a real HQ as such, vital to be the mil/pol link

HQ LAND/AG - Merge very soon.

PJHQ - Vital, performs a very important role, especially at the mo.

Divisions of Infantry - Not sure what you mean, we have HQ Inf which provides the focal point for all things Inf (and is not that large an HQ) just as all the other Corps have their directorates.

Garrison HQs - Not that big and mostly staffed with ROs.

District HQs - Only really have LONDIST and that performs a similar function to a Regional Bde HQ.

Operational Fmn HQs - Fundamental

Regional Fmn HQs - Look after all the things the Op HQs can't, i.e. infrastructure, TA etc etc that needs to be looked after when the deployable bit deploys.

Regimental HQs - Very small and contain no regular staff.

So where are the cuts going to come from?!?!
 
Suggestions for savings - money to be put back into equipment & troops for frontline (the bayonet edge) & support staff NOT HQs etc

Combine LRATGW Tps into Formation Recce Regts

Change London District to a Bde level

Get rid of training units (making them just a training centre) - eg RAC Reg, 14 Regt RA, 2 Regt AAC, 11 Sigs Regt, 1 RSME, 2 RSME

Disband 5 Regt AAC and move its only Sqn (665) to another unit / make it independant

Review need for National Comms Sigs units

Make EW, IT, Satcom, Ptarmigan sub-units part of the Formation unit (eg a Satcom detachment or 2 with each Bde Sigs Sqn).

Merge RAMC, QARANC & RADC into a single Corps providing garrison & field medical facilities

Units to contain all integral support ie clerks, rear HQ, catering etc are part of the unit not part of a detachment from AGC etc

Review the need for SPS AGC - just have them staffing major HQs

Merge MPS & ALS into RMP (just a separate unit within it)

Review need for MPGS

Contract out ETS

Remove Corps status of APTC & SASC - have school status only & integrate into units

Turn Army Trg Regt into Trg Centres

Turn Regional Divs & Bdes into combined (Regular & TA) all arms formations

Theatre Troops to provide Corps support & specialist units

Disband UAV & STA RA Regts and have sub-units within operational Arty units

Disband P&C Regts and integrate into formation RLC units
 
The way in which the corps are being treated these days I would consider putting money saved back into training corps types to do an Infantry role. (I'm not talking what little they pick up in phase 1 either for those that honestly believe this is already the case)

The Corps would benefit alot from more infantry training at entry level but most importantly when it comes to promotion. Its vile that (For Example not having a dig) A Signal Sergeant/troopy is expected to be a "Platoon" sergeant/commander on operations with "similar" roles to that of the infantry without some serious training time in Platoon Tactics. Same for all ranks.

If the corps are going to be abused due to flagging troop numbers then money needs to be pumped into more up to date and thorough training for them.
 
irlsgt, it is a sad fact of life that however small a packet you deploy satcomm tps, UAV dets, STA assets etc in, there is regrettably a training overhead/requirement which requires a bigger peacetime unit in order to reduce training costs!
 
Cuddles said:
irlsgt, it is a sad fact of life that however small a packet you deploy satcomm tps, UAV dets, STA assets etc in, there is regrettably a training overhead/requirement which requires a bigger peacetime unit in order to reduce training costs!

Eg all the HQ & support staff, what about having for example a Coy within of these within each Div - loss a few HQ staff & there wages & required admin -> look after the pennies etc!! Sure it isn't a case of jobs for the boys?

For example why not have a "SATCOM detachment" within the Bde Sigs Sqn. There is your trg & admin staff looked after.
 
irlsgt said:
Cuddles said:
irlsgt, it is a sad fact of life that however small a packet you deploy satcomm tps, UAV dets, STA assets etc in, there is regrettably a training overhead/requirement which requires a bigger peacetime unit in order to reduce training costs!

Eg all the HQ & support staff, what about having for example a Coy within of these within each Div - loss a few HQ staff & there wages & required admin -> look after the pennies etc!! Sure it isn't a case of jobs for the boys?

For example why not have a "SATCOM detachment" within the Bde Sigs Sqn. There is your trg & admin staff looked after.

Irlsgt,
I know most of us feel instinctively that all HQs are just full of pen pushers whilst the real soldiering is done elsewhere but I dont know if it is that easy. Who are you going to get rid of in the Div HQs? G2? G3? G5? Normally there is a job in the HQ because it needs done, not to give someone a shiny desk to sit at. Also, I am not convinced that releasing the liability would automatically lead to more soldiers or better equipment. We are really struggling with recruiting in those areas that you would wish to see increased. Anyway you have made quite a few good proposals in your various options and some of them might work. Good luck with persuading others to implement these changes.
whf
 
wehappyfew said:
irlsgt said:
Cuddles said:
irlsgt, it is a sad fact of life that however small a packet you deploy satcomm tps, UAV dets, STA assets etc in, there is regrettably a training overhead/requirement which requires a bigger peacetime unit in order to reduce training costs!

Eg all the HQ & support staff, what about having for example a Coy within of these within each Div - loss a few HQ staff & there wages & required admin -> look after the pennies etc!! Sure it isn't a case of jobs for the boys?

For example why not have a "SATCOM detachment" within the Bde Sigs Sqn. There is your trg & admin staff looked after.

Irlsgt,
I know most of us feel instinctively that all HQs are just full of pen pushers whilst the real soldiering is done elsewhere but I dont know if it is that easy. Who are you going to get rid of in the Div HQs? G2? G3? G5? Normally there is a job in the HQ because it needs done, not to give someone a shiny desk to sit at. Also, I am not convinced that releasing the liability would automatically lead to more soldiers or better equipment. We are really struggling with recruiting in those areas that you would wish to see increased. Anyway you have made quite a few good proposals in your various options and some of them might work. Good luck with persuading others to implement these changes.
whf

This paper strongly suggests that there is an issue with featherbedding in HQ elements. One interesting comparsion is on Page 7. In 1990-91 the NBC staff at Brig HQ was 1 (one) SSgt. Op Telic needed 4 captains.......
 
To save money and spend it were it counts.easy disband the RAF Display Squadron, its huge, all those Typhoons and such swanning around Londons skies.

Either re-role them into operational units or sell them off to advert companies and just hope US Air is around when needed. :D
 
I'm suggesting getting rid of the HQ itself.

Currently for example a EW Sigs Regt exists. It detachs troop sized units (I presume, this is an example) to operational units (ie Brigades).

Yet the 2 groups of personnel & 2 units are not used to operating together untill there pre deployment training. What about cases of rapid deployment.

Why not have the EW troop as a permanent part of the Bde Sigs Sqn, it eliminates the need for a HQ as the HQ tasks are still being fulfilled, if needed an independant EW Sigs Sqn could provide specialist support.

This builds unit cohesion and decrease deployment time IMO, while also reducing costs.

---------------------------------
I'd hold 16 Air Aslt & 3 Cdo Bdes up as good examples, yes they are in specialist roles but are armoured, mechanised & light infantry not specialist too?:

All these units are permanently assigned to the parent brigade & in the vast majority of cases are independant of any large HQ. Eg the Med Regt isn't part of a Med Bde.

16 Air Aslt Bde HQ
- Sigs Sqn
- Fd Arty Regt
- Engr Regt
- AAC Regts
- RLC Supp Regt
- REME Bn
- Med Regt
- Recce Sqn
- Aviation Sp Unit
- RMP Coy

3 Cdo Bde HQ (this is probably a better example)
- HQ & Sigs Sqn
- Bde Patrol Gp
- EW Tp
- AD Tp
- MP Tp
- TACPs
- Fd Arty Regt
- Commacchio Gp
- Aslt Sqn
- Logs Regt
- Air Sqn
- Engr Sqn
 
Pre AGC(SPS) days you had Regimental/Corps Clerks some who had joined up to Clerk and some who had moved into the trade many some had become slightly injured and would have found carrying on in the Coy/Bty hard but they were alous to carry n in an admin role. The bonus of this was that they understood the problems and hassles that faced their fellows so they could help them to the best of their abilities and had a certain amount of empathy with them. They were also quiet often dual trade Soldier/Clerk or Radio op/Clerk so were deployable asset that was of use to the sub unit.
 
irlsgt said:
I'm suggesting getting rid of the HQ itself.

Currently for example a EW Sigs Regt exists. It detachs troop sized units (I presume, this is an example) to operational units (ie Brigades).

Yet the 2 groups of personnel & 2 units are not used to operating together untill there pre deployment training. What about cases of rapid deployment.

Why not have the EW troop as a permanent part of the Bde Sigs Sqn, it eliminates the need for a HQ as the HQ tasks are still being fulfilled, if needed an independant EW Sigs Sqn could provide specialist support.

This builds unit cohesion and decrease deployment time IMO, while also reducing costs.

---------------------------------
I'd hold 16 Air Aslt & 3 Cdo Bdes up as good examples, yes they are in specialist roles but are armoured, mechanised & light infantry not specialist too?:

All these units are permanently assigned to the parent brigade & in the vast majority of cases are independant of any large HQ. Eg the Med Regt isn't part of a Med Bde.

16 Air Aslt Bde HQ
- Sigs Sqn
- Fd Arty Regt
- Engr Regt
- AAC Regts
- RLC Supp Regt
- REME Bn
- Med Regt
- Recce Sqn
- Aviation Sp Unit
- RMP Coy

3 Cdo Bde HQ (this is probably a better example)
- HQ & Sigs Sqn
- Bde Patrol Gp
- EW Tp
- AD Tp
- MP Tp
- TACPs
- Fd Arty Regt
- Commacchio Gp
- Aslt Sqn
- Logs Regt
- Air Sqn
- Engr Sqn

So no 2* or 3* HQs? Who does those tasks which are fulfilled at the Div and Corps level? What about when you deploy a couple or three brigades on a warfighting op - toss a coin amongst the brigadiers to see who fancies being boss? Almost everything that you have posted has got some obvious advantages but there are some obvious downsides. I know that it is traditional to view everyone in the MOD and any HQ as an idiot who is always acting against the interests of the real soldiers but there are numerous reasons for why some of those that you propose to make "independent" need to be part of something bigger. An obvious problem with your suggestion is, who fulfils the specific arm/service career management? is it done by someone else within the Bde? is it done by the individuals in the sub-unit? Also how do you ensure a career stream or progression if there is nowhere to go after the independent sub-unit? There may be some easy answers to those questions out there and other armies probably do it differently. I assume from your nom de guerre that you have something to do with the Irish Army. Given its size and relative lack of ambition (not a criticism but an observation linked to whether you, as an Army, plan to take part in high end warfighting or whether you will continue to take part in low intensity peacekeeping and monitoring tasks) then the Irish Army has probably got some differnet ways of dealing with some of its specialists - who belong to a very small grouping. I don't currently work in the MOD or a HQ but I am not convinced that people brighter than you and I have not considered some of these options in the past and not adopted them for reasons beyond that of lack of inititive or intelligence.
whf
 
I'm not suggesting getting rid of operational HQs (ie 1 & 3 Div HQ) I'm suggesting getting rid of non-deployable regional HQ and replacing them with more deployable operational all arms (less garrison based) Formations HQs. For example recently 6 Div HQ was reformed, yet there are 3 2* HQs all ready!

Face it in the vast majority of cases Divisions are not deployed, Bdes are! Train (and IMO organise) as you expect to fight. Have the units that are going to deploy together working together all the time. ie the brigade "owns" the engineers, sigs, etc that it would fight/deploy with, they aren't a division asset, they are the Bde GOC's. Of course some units are still required at Div level to look after 3rd line logs, also there may/may not be a requirement for other independant specialist units.

Realistically when is a 3* HQ ever likely to be deployed?? Yes it is required due to the size of the British Army IMHO HQ Land should fullfill this role with deployable elements in order to act as a 3* HQ in the field (be it for the ARRC or something else).

The first stage in career management should always be the section commander up to unit CO. There is nothing to stop that being done by a Major instead of a Lt Col. A small career management/HR could be established in Corps HQ if required, they are after all already responsible for recruitment, retention etc.

If brigades require a regimental level type of support (possible eg engrs) there isn't a problem as the personnel can still go to the highest SNCO rank and to that of Lt Col. If they don't there would still be some posts in specialist units, training posts, higher HQs (eg Corps level). There is nothing to stop people going into command/training/specialist appointments. If need be a small specialists advisor cell should be created at Divisional level (I presume the British Army has this already in addition to all the units)!

I do see your point but is that a reason for money to be "wasted" that could be going to the people on the front line that die due to cut backs/lack of sufficient budget?

Yes I'm in the Irish Defence Forces (a force who isn't experienced at warfighting but the operational tempo of what is now usually peace enforcement missions that we are involved has greatly increased over the last 10+ years). The Irish DF is simply too small (and the Government lacks the will and money) to become involved in warfighting apart from defending ourselves.

We have much of the same organisation as the British Army just on a smaller not as well equipped scale. I believe it is a good model that works well. The idea would just have to be stretched to meet the larger demands of the British Army.

Basically our Defence Forces consists of 3 all arms light infantry bdes each with:

Bde HQ
3 x Inf Bn
Fd Arty Regt (light gun)
Cav Sqn (light & light armd recce)
Logs Supp Bn (Camp Staff (looks after many of the garrison jobs), Ordnance (REME), Med, MP & Tpt Coys)
Fd Engr Coy
Fd Comms & Info Services Coy (Sigs & IT)
Bde Trg Centre (run some career & specialist courses)

Then there is the DF level units:
* The DF Trg Centre (with integral support) provides all the career & specialist training schools.

* There is a DF Logs Base which provide the specialist workshops & technical stores, and in some cases small specialist units.

* There is a DF Reserve consisting of the SF unit, AD Regt, light tank sqn & APC coy

* There are also a number of smaller establishment outside of this eg training installations & specialist units.

Each Corps consists of:
* Directorate (headed by a Colonel) which looks after the strategic direction, planning & operation of the Corps
* the field & any specialist units
* the training school
* workshops & technical stores (in some Corps)
 
Irlsgt, you almost had me at the point where you said about deploying bde's and then it all went pear shaped when you said that we wouldn't deploy as a division again!

I appreciate your sentiment and at a lower level it really does work. In the IDF if you only have 3 Bdes you will never be able to deploy as a Division unless the world in Eire has really fallen apart. We last deployed in a Divisional context in 2003 (TELIC 1) if we had removed a lot of the Divisional infrastructure we would not have been in a position to mount such an operation.

I am a keen advocate of training for the most likely (Bde) and maintaining a method to step up to Divisional warfighting. I have a very clear understanding that the army is restructuring to Bde level ops and I also have some clear ideas that dovetail with some of yours. But where you fail to understand the issue is when you start stating we should remove regional formations. They are there for a purpose and it is not to waste money. If you removed them you would have to create their role in a deployable HQ, this in turn would not be a deployable role and would detract from that HQ's true role (warfighting vs infrastructure and regional trivia).
 
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