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How far has democracy taken root in Europe? Retired Spanish generals advocate shooting 26 million.

BratMedic

LE
Book Reviewer

Le_addeur_noir

On ROPS
On ROPs
If BLM dont wind their necks in Le Pen will be the next PM

Theres a strong undercurrent of Im fed up being told that im racist (much like in the UK)

But here they mean it when they say I may as well vote FN then.

The way London-and I dare say Paris is going, bring it on.

The same can be said for much of western Europe.
 

Wee Hawken

Old-Salt
Without wishing to be flippant, the Spanish Army, like us but more so, is very short of equipment, ammo etc (even blank). The probability of being able to find 26 million live rounds for mass execution purposes is somewhat low so I think you can relax for now.

Les flippantly, and having spent some time with the Spanish Army in recent years, I would note that even the most senior officers have only served in times of democracy (there being very few, I suspect, from pre-1978 days). Even the Tejero golpe was almost 40 years ago. Pub talk is one thing, but I would not really doubt their commitment to a democratic state.

I would admit ,however, that sympathy for gobby Catalan separatists and the like is not especially widespread in military circles :)
 

HCL

LE
Yes but no. The head of the Jemad (Joint Services) was straight onto the press to say in effect just that.
However the point isn't that it was a few retired crusties, especially when a follow up letter from 217 other officers expressed sentiments of the unity of Spain being in danger. In reality it's just a budget vote in Parliament in a special situation not secession.
It does show that there is an underlying sense of intolerance to those who don't subscribe to a certain mindset and demanding conformity.
An American lady I know who has spent a long time in various countries told me that she was horrified by the underlying current of fascism in Spain.
Look at the reaction to the Catalan referendum. I've speculated more than once if the police had been given the order to use firearms if they would have.

Spain does have an intolerant streak, I'm interested in where else it can be found.

Scotland
 

HCL

LE
Technically we don't understand democracy any more. We have allowed our entire system of checks and balances to be thrown out of the window, starting with Tony Blair and ending with Boris Johnson.

The House of Lords is now a party political entity over stuffed at the whim of whichever party is in power plus the remains of the last one (when the House of Lords is this large it is too unwieldy to scrutinise legislation effectively let alone the process for selecting members these days is so risible). With the Queen happy to sign off anything the Prime Minister puts in front of her this doesn't leave any informed challenge over what a Prime Minister wants to implement however unreasonable it is.

Sometimes a little fear of the population is a good thing for ruling bodies - it reminds them that they have to think longer term than addressing the latest headline in the Daily Mail.

What I'm about to post is going to produce some interesting responses: the right to strike was curtailed, not only against employers but against landlords (rent) and councils (rates/council tax) removing what was a fundamental "democratic right".
Both Labour and Conservatives tried in the early 70s to do this but were given short shrift. It was Maggie and her successors that succeeded an by doing so inadvertently opened the door to the minorities rule sh1t show today.
 
France.

If Macron fails, as he should, and we keep all our fishing rights, then the next French President will be Marine Le Pen. Then we'll see the true level of French intolerance

He is going the right way about it if he does fall from grace.
Currently he is on his fourth Interior Minister in three and a half years, a modern record for a european country.
It was reported in the national press yesterday that he has already lost confidence in the current Minister who has only been in place since July, poor sod.
More ominously he has been in direct SMS contact with the National Police union leader about improving working conditions and relations with the public, completely bypassing the Interior Ministry and Minister.
He has less than 18 months left in office and should now be at the stage of sweetening up the voting public with policies designed to get him re-elected.
That he is not suggests to me that he has absolutely no ammo left in the box, or doesn't care, which is a dangerous thing in a country like France with a very long tradition of taking to the streets.
 
I know nothing ....

Actually, the Greeks knew damn well their economy was not aligned properly to join the EU - but were quite happy for the EU to pretend it was.
The money poured in, the infrastructure improved immensely and now Greece is 'owned' by Germany.

When the EU collapses, that infrastructure still remains in Greece and Germany can go hang.
Fair compensation for the last time they invaded was the attitude I heard a lot.

I like the Greeks and I like their version of Democracy.

Not really owned by Germany......other than in the broadest context of the banking system.

Most of the risk is in bond form and has been either a) now held by the ECB via bond sales as part of the liquidity programs, or b) securitized and sold to investors.
 
Even better then !
The ECB can go and swivel, the Investers will have to come to terms with ' You win some, you lose some' and der Vaterland does not have the excuse to goose-step around the Acropolis again.

Even if the Investors losing means my pension pot is affected - I don't care.
There are some things in life more important than money.
 

Dwarf

LE
Spain was also on the receiving end of intolerance with the Basque ETA terrorist movement.

854 killed including 240 Guardia Civil members, that leaves traces in the national psyche.

Their is an Amazon Prime 8 part documentary on the struggle against ETA which is well worth a look

Amazon product
I will agree with you there, ETA was not a nice experience for anyone. But it arose because a certain part of the Basque population saw no solution to some of their aspirations under a repressive Franco government. The Spanish complain about the Basques and Catalans for example while ignoring the fact that 600 years of intolerance and repression towards those who were not in line with their version of Castillian thought since the days of Isabella and Ferdinand has actually caused the situation.
Intolerance breeds intolerance.

Just recently a couple of mouthy Guardia Civils out for the night with their girlfriends in a small Basque town which had been ETA sympathetic, got into an altercation with some lads in a bar and got a kicking. The machine swung into action and the lads were charged under a terrorism act and received heavy prison sentences. None of them denied that they had been in a pub brawl and none of them denied the shoeing, they all denied that it was motivated by anything other than a couple of loud-mouthed show-offs.
It's a blatant injustice but comes from a 'We have to show them whose boss' attitude from the system and I'm absolutely sure that the Basques in general and the people of that town specifically willl be less enamoured of Spanish tolerance after this.
Intolerance breeds intolerance.

Edit for typo.
 
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The Greeks invented radical democracy in Europe, but for most of modern history many major European states have not known it.

Italy had Mussolini
Spain had Franco
France had Napoleon
Germany had Hitler and the Kaiser
Romania had Ceaușescu
Poland had Józef Piłsudski
Yugoslavia had Tito
Russia had the Tsars, Stalin and now Putin.

The English speaking world has never really known a dictator (other than Cromwell) and we have traditionally governed by parliamentary democracy.

This goes a long way to explaining how Brexit and the vote for Scottish independence was able to go through without the country resorting to bloodshed.

It also explains why every other English speaking country in the world has a high regard for democracy and that our own future should lie with the Anglosphere.
 

Dwarf

LE
Without wishing to be flippant, the Spanish Army, like us but more so, is very short of equipment, ammo etc (even blank). The probability of being able to find 26 million live rounds for mass execution purposes is somewhat low so I think you can relax for now.

Les flippantly, and having spent some time with the Spanish Army in recent years, I would note that even the most senior officers have only served in times of democracy (there being very few, I suspect, from pre-1978 days). Even the Tejero golpe was almost 40 years ago. Pub talk is one thing, but I would not really doubt their commitment to a democratic state.

I would admit ,however, that sympathy for gobby Catalan separatists and the like is not especially widespread in military circles :)
I know about the money and kit situation. A friend of my daughter was based near here and she told us stories of sending them out on 30 hour 'toughening up' marches so as to save €€€€'s on scoff.

I wasn't actually doubting the commitment to democracy of the modern armed forces, and they have changed hugely in recent years in many ways and most of it positive. I just took this as an example of how mindsets still persist in certain circles.
Spain is actually a good example of this with the justice system especially. Those that control certain key appointments make sure that those in sympathy with 'traditional' Spain get to maintain this mindset. When the Catalan politicians were tried those in charge of the trial basically had the verdict written before the start and had to manipulate the proceedings to ensure it happened. The two Jordis received punishments that would not have happened in most EU countries, and in fact would not have been charged as they were.
But they had defied the idea of traditional Spain, promoted separation and had to pay, and a lot of Spanish went along with that despite the fact that whether you agree with Catalan/Basque independence or not it is or should be a legitimate democratic aspiration.
Sure I'm a (gobby) supporter of Catalan independence but it was the Spanish lack of empathy and their reaction that made me so not the Catalans. That's one of the reasons I'm curious as to how far this extends in other countries.
 
The Greeks invented radical democracy in Europe, but for most of modern history many major European states have not known it.

Italy had Mussolini
Spain had Franco
France had Napoleon
Germany had Hitler and the Kaiser
Romania had Ceaușescu
Poland had Józef Piłsudski
Yugoslavia had Tito
Russia had the Tsars, Stalin and now Putin.

The English speaking world has never really known a dictator (other than Cromwell) and we have traditionally governed by parliamentary democracy.

This goes a long way to explaining how Brexit and the vote for Scottish independence was able to go through without the country resorting to bloodshed.

It also explains why every other English speaking country in the world has a high regard for democracy and that our own future should lie with the Anglosphere.

Just to add a little more, I think this also explains why other countries fall to embrace democracy.

Anyone remember the Arab Spring? The world held its collective breath as it appeared Egypt was on the brink of a liberal and free government. Then they simply returned to their conservative values because that's what the Egyptian mindset is composed of and it's their view of the world.

Anyone recalll the halcyon days of the late 90s? Army generals were running around in panic trying to invent new enemies to justify their existence because Russia was no longer a threat. Boris Yeltsin was seen as a bumbling alcoholic uncle and at one point Russia was thinking of joining NATO - we all know how that turned out. The Russians, like the Egyptians, merely returned to form because their national character (whatever that is) identifies with a strong man like Stalin.

This is also why it might be unwise to try and impose Western values in the Middle East, they just don't think that way and it's not a part of their culture.

Incidentally, this is also why I'm opposed to mass immigration because it introduces social structures and world views which are not compatible with the awesome Western ideals of liberty and self government.
 

BratMedic

LE
Book Reviewer
I've

been waiting 8 years or so for someone to call me some sort of walt...
1607603152105.png
You look a bit decrepit after all that waiting.
 
This is also why it might be unwise to try and impose Western values in the Middle East, they just don't think that way and it's not a part of their culture.

Might be? I think that point was discovered a dozen years ago or more
 

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