How far has democracy taken root in Europe? Retired Spanish generals advocate shooting 26 million.

[Dwarf]

Was this not refuted by senior serving officers who alleged the original authors were well past their sell by date and it was all a storm in a tea cup. Item in The Times this week I believe (behind paywall)

Yes but no. The head of the Jemad (Joint Services) was straight onto the press to say in effect just that.
However the point isn't that it was a few retired crusties, especially when a follow up letter from 217 other officers expressed sentiments of the unity of Spain being in danger. In reality it's just a budget vote in Parliament in a special situation not secession.
It does show that there is an underlying sense of intolerance to those who don't subscribe to a certain mindset and demanding conformity.
An American lady I know who has spent a long time in various countries told me that she was horrified by the underlying current of fascism in Spain.
Look at the reaction to the Catalan referendum. I've speculated more than once if the police had been given the order to use firearms if they would have.

Spain does have an intolerant streak, I'm interested in where else it can be found.

 

[Dwarf]

The Spanish Socialists keep on confronting the Franquists head on.

They should just let the last supporters of el Tio Paco die and do what needs doing peacefully rather than orchestrate divisive events like the removal of Franco's remains from the Valle de los Caidos.

I have yet to meet a Spanish officer who is not an admirer of Franco and a partisan of moral order.

Military speaking, the man was a genuine hero, having won most of Spain's gallantry awards before he was a Colonel. He was known to have zero consideration for his own safety when operating.

Michel del Castillo, the son of a Franco opponent, wrote a very balanced account of Franco's life which was unfortunately not translated in English I think.

Michel del Castillo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The point is they aren't dying off as fast as one would think. I came across a gent during a 'casolada' over independence where at a certain time people go out on their balconies and bang pots and pans as a protest. This bloke speaking in Spanish, my town is Catalan speaking, told me in all seriousness that he would machine gun the lot of them. He rapidly shut up and backed off when he saw my face, luckily for him. People who agree with Paco's ideas are still out there and in numbers.
The removal of Franco's remains was to take away a rallying point for his supporters, remembering that the Falange is still legal and active. His continuation there was seen as an affront by many who wanted the Valley of the Fallen to be a memorial for all the war dead not just the nationalists. There is still a lot of division here.

Oh, brave he might have been but as a general he was only adequate.

 

[kimmi851]

In response to mild tutting about an outbreak of coup, a senior Thai interlocutor told us “The trouble with you British is you don’t understand democracy”. We scratched our heads for a bit so he could see we were thinking hard about that one.

Technically we don't understand democracy any more. We have allowed our entire system of checks and balances to be thrown out of the window, starting with Tony Blair and ending with Boris Johnson.

The House of Lords is now a party political entity over stuffed at the whim of whichever party is in power plus the remains of the last one (when the House of Lords is this large it is too unwieldy to scrutinise legislation effectively let alone the process for selecting members these days is so risible). With the Queen happy to sign off anything the Prime Minister puts in front of her this doesn't leave any informed challenge over what a Prime Minister wants to implement however unreasonable it is.

Sometimes a little fear of the population is a good thing for ruling bodies - it reminds them that they have to think longer term than addressing the latest headline in the Daily Mail.

 

[CutLunchCommando]

The Greeks - they don't understand the meaning of accountancy.

 

[Le_addeur_noir]

I always thought the Greeks were very creative when it came to accountancy.

 

[Le_addeur_noir]

Technically we don't understand democracy any more. We have allowed our entire system of checks and balances to be thrown out of the window, starting with Tony Blair and ending with Boris Johnson.

The House of Lords is now a party political entity over stuffed at the whim of whichever party is in power plus the remains of the last one (when the House of Lords is this large it is too unwieldy to scrutinise legislation effectively let alone the process for selecting members these days is so risible). With the Queen happy to sign off anything the Prime Minister puts in front of her this doesn't leave any informed challenge over what a Prime Minister wants to implement however unreasonable it is.

Sometimes a little fear of the population is a good thing for ruling bodies - it reminds them that they have to think longer term than addressing the latest headline in the Daily Mail.

Democracy is not for the people. Tony Blair and the EU know this only too well.

 

[fantassin]

Spain was also on the receiving end of intolerance with the Basque ETA terrorist movement.

854 killed including 240 Guardia Civil members, that leaves traces in the national psyche.

There is an Amazon Prime 8 part documentary on the struggle against ETA which is well worth a look

Amazon product

 

[lokiuk]

I always thought the Greeks were very creative when it came to accountancy.

Creative accountancy, it's all Greek to me

 

[Banker]

I always thought the Greeks were very creative when it came to accountancy.

Goldman were their creative advisors.

The Greek mantra was.........Δεν ξέρω τίποτα

 

[Mike Barton]

The point is they aren't dying off as fast as one would think. I came across a gent during a 'casolada' over independence where at a certain time people go out on their balconies and bang pots and pans as a protest. This bloke speaking in Spanish, my town is Catalan speaking, told me in all seriousness that he would machine gun the lot of them. He rapidly shut up and backed off when he saw my face, luckily for him. People who agree with Paco's ideas are still out there and in numbers.
The removal of Franco's remains was to take away a rallying point for his supporters, remembering that the Falange is still legal and active. His continuation there was seen as an affront by many who wanted the Valley of the Fallen to be a memorial for all the war dead not just the nationalists. There is still a lot of division here.

Oh, brave he might have been but as a general he was only adequate.

Not just the old ones.

I remember back in 2011, around the time the credit crunch was taking a hold on the Eurozone, I was having a few beers with a young Spanish chap, about thirty, married to my wife's cousin and working in creative media. You can imagine the type, dressed in black, horn-rimmed glasses, the sort of guy who could be relied upon to be woke in pretty much any circumstances. He was explaining the devastation in the Spanish economy, rocketing youth unemployment, and how his own business had dried up.

The longer he chatted and the more beer I consumed I couldn't help but put my big foot in it as I can usually be relied upon to do. "The big mistake you lads made was getting rid of Franco [I know he died, but whatever], that's what Spain needs now, a new Franco." I was of course piss-taking to the most extraordinary degree, just looking to get a rise out of the lad.

But he paused, thought for a while and said "Yeah, I think you are right, we need a new Franco, it's the only thing that can save Spain now".

Jesus! I thought, he's serious. I rapidly changed the conversation.

 

[medwaymud]

Goldman were their creative advisors.

The Greek mantra was.........Δεν ξέρω τίποτα

I know nothing ....

Actually, the Greeks knew damn well their economy was not aligned properly to join the EU - but were quite happy for the EU to pretend it was.
The money poured in, the infrastructure improved immensely and now Greece is 'owned' by Germany.

When the EU collapses, that infrastructure still remains in Greece and Germany can go hang.
Fair compensation for the last time they invaded was the attitude I heard a lot.

I like the Greeks and I like their version of Democracy.

 

[Whining Civvy]

I'm entirely against lists on the grounds that they are open to discrimination of all kinds, and in our modern age that cannot be permitted. A simple 70 foot wall around London and a dam of equal height across the Thames would be entirely free of bias and would surely meet with approval from all concerned.

 

[Lindermyer]

I'm entirely against lists on the grounds that they are open to discrimination of all kinds, and in our modern age that cannot be permitted. A simple 70 foot wall around London and a dam of equal height across the Thames would be entirely free of bias and would surely meet with approval from all concerned.

Twinned I trust with one around Belgium

 

[Dafty duck]

I'm not sure you need to go as far as eastern europe. I remember similar opinions being expressed to me during the 2014 independence referendum about what should happen to those who voted stay should the vote go the other way. Some were even going so far as being deadly serious about correlating voters back to their ballot papers and deporting them.

They already have their processing facility for non SNP party faithful on standby.

 

[Auld-Yin]

I can't see any issue ? I'd happily shoot 26 million Spanish,

Shooting? Right, take a blindfold, first door on the left!

 

[AlienFTM]

Can I just say that liberal democracy as we see it these days is just a very short step from anarchy.

Here are the rules. Fúck 'em, I've got my rights.

 

[Fat_Cav]

I can't see any issue ? I'd happily shoot 26 million Spanish,

Aren't most of them over here masquerading as nurses? The 26 million are probably all British ex-pats

 

[Fat_Cav]

Spain does have an intolerant streak, I'm interested in where else it can be found.

France.

If Macron fails, as he should, and we keep all our fishing rights, then the next French President will be Marine Le Pen. Then we'll see the true level of French intolerance

 

[Le_addeur_noir]

France.

If Macron fails, as he will, and we keep all our fishing rights, then the next French President will be Marine Le Pen. Then we'll see the true level of French intolerance

FOC

The 2040s will be like the 1940s, only worse. Law and order is collapsing in much of Europe.

 

[Lindermyer]

France.

If Macron fails, as he should, and we keep all our fishing rights, then the next French President will be Marine Le Pen. Then we'll see the true level of French intolerance

If BLM dont wind their necks in Le Pen will be the next PM

Theres a strong undercurrent of Im fed up being told that im racist (much like in the UK)

But here they mean it when they say I may as well vote FN then.