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How Do We Create a Fairer Society? (Without destroying everything)

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
We also need to pay them more than they would get in benefits. Real wages have declined over the years and you can't get much bang for your buck anymore. This is especially the case when you consider house prices and proper healthy food, there is no incentive for dolies to go to work if they can afford fags, booze, a 50" plasma telly and a PS5. Their money should be replaced by vouchers for food, clothes and other essentials. If they want a new iphone they should get a job to pay for it.
sadly vouchers don't work because the scrotes turn them into cash @ the local corner shop at 90c on the dollar and then buy drugs with them (US experience tells us).
 

endure

GCM
The demise of trades being taught to young people happened long before the philosophy of university education being made available to the masses became an aspiration.

Back in the sixties and seventies, apprenticeships to teach young people useful skills such as electrical work, plumbing work and a whole raft of other things that would give young people the ability for their whole lives to earn a decent living were scrapped en mass as a cost saving measure.

All those apprenticeship schemes were replaced with the infamous YTS scheme which was basically a subsidised cheap labour scheme that companies used to employ youngsters without having to pay them anything because those on it got a pittance of a government allowance.

It was a Thatcher government idea which was implemented at the end of the seventies/beginning of the eighties.


The YOPS scheme was introduced by Labour in 1978.
The YTS scheme was introduced by Thatcher's government in 1983.

It was the YTS scheme that enabled me to leave the sea and study microprocessor and control systems which provided me with employment until I retired.
 
The YOPS scheme was introduced by Labour in 1978.
The YTS scheme was introduced by Thatcher's government in 1983.

It was the YTS scheme that enabled me to leave the sea and study microprocessor and control systems which provided me with employment until I retired.

Some employers used the YTS scheme and enhanced it to provide proper training. Some of them also subsidised the money paid by the government to make it more of a living wage. The majority didn’t though and it was a source of free labour paid for by the government.

Youngsters unless they had independent means were forced to go on it because they were excluded from unemployment benefits and so the YTS was their sole option for a source of income.
 

exiledblue

War Hero
How do we create a fairer society without destroying everything?

Black Lives Matters has traction because most BAMES believe they are impacted by racism and It would ridiculous to deny it.

It’s undoubtedly true that BAMES are more likely (than the average indigenous population) to have confrontational encounters with the police and other authorities.

This is also true of ‘white trash’. Many of them have confrontational encounters with authorities.

Of course the reason that many people have confrontational encounters with the police is that they are breaking the law or are themselves confrontational when they encounter the police.

It was reported recently that the UK has one of the worst records of social mobility. It doesn’t matter how aspirational or how ambitious people at the bottom are they are unlikely to claw their way up - legally at least.

All societies can be reformed. How do we reform society to make it fairer for all.

Take some responsibility for your self as an individual.. Nothing is fair.

I was brought up in one of the most deprived areas of the UK the south Walesa Valleys while the minors strike was on. Me and my piers managed to get decent A levels and move on. However i saw some terrible reactions from the striker's - i was sitting at the desk of a school fund raiser to get a pound entrance and a striker come up and said he should be allowed in for free cause he was on strike.

When he was told no and the entire point was to support all kids he kicked off. I lost all sympathy for them then and i was only like 15.

Miners used to earn a huge pay compared to others - was it fair?

You want a fairer society? Skill and education needed for a country should be realistic - bankers earn lot because they bring in lots. However should TV presenters earn lots?

I am well payed because i have knowledge and skills as a civil engineer.

Tell me how do you think un educated, unskilled people should be given social mobility.

They have the chance they just need to take it - lazyness or my family is poor is not an excuse. Our school captain, played for Wales under 18's, head of our exam results is in a low paying job. The rest of us went off and got degrees etc and are well paid.

Social mobility is a mirage - if you want to get out of the gutter you can. Lots of ways, do school and get a job and work up. Join the military and get out, get a job and move up. It is not hard, it is harder now but still achievable.

I went out for dinner tonight (1st time in a long while) and was talking to the waitress - asked how she had cooped with the shut down - her response "i saw it coming so made sure i had paid my rent for 6 weeks -(and) i think this will make people think about their money'
Very astute young lady

The colour of your skin or religeon does not matter. Its terrible what happens and we should all shout out about racism and police brutality - and remember it is low in the UK. However pulling down statues etc just shows a lack of historical perspective.

Was Churchill racist - ask the people of Tonypandy if they care. Ask the people who defaced the statue if they know where Tonypandy is or what it means.

Did the people of Tonypandy fight in the worl war - yes
 
Nail head, Can somebody explain to me how it is ethical to have vice-chancellors on 300k dreaming up ever more creative ways of selling crap at 9k a year to youngsters, most of whom will get very little benefit but a good deal of debt and wasted time.
Edit to add , in response to to post 20082101 by dashing chap.
 
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The demise of trades being taught to young people happened long before the philosophy of university education being made available to the masses became an aspiration.

Back in the sixties and seventies, apprenticeships to teach young people useful skills such as electrical work, plumbing work and a whole raft of other things that would give young people the ability for their whole lives to earn a decent living were scrapped en mass as a cost saving measure.

All those apprenticeship schemes were replaced with the infamous YTS scheme which was basically a subsidised cheap labour scheme that companies used to employ youngsters without having to pay them anything because those on it got a pittance of a government allowance.

It was a Thatcher government idea which was implemented at the end of the seventies/beginning of the eighties.

In high street retail for example, you could walk around a shopping centre and there were handwritten signs in the shop windows asking for YTS workers. The scheme lasted for six months for each individual so after six months, the shop assistants were sacked and a new sign went up in the window asking for YTS workers again who would be taken on for six months until the next cycle.

The move to make university level education a goal for everybody was a Blair government policy started after Labour came into power in 1997.

A revamped apprenticeship scheme similar to those operating in the 70’s/80’s would be an excellent way forward but it needs to be properly structured and funded so that it does attract young recruits and they get the industry recognised qualifications they need to go out into the world and get on.

It needs to be seen as a viable alternative to the university path to a career with professional qualifications that allow youngsters to hit the ground running once they have completed the course and passed the exams.
Not sure how you replace a 4 year engineering apprenticeship with a 6 month YTS scheme. I did my apprenticeship in the 70's with the Army, two years full time at brats followed by upgrading courses.
My Brother did 4 years as a tool room turner apprentice with Fairey Winches, 4 years 1977-1981.
All apprentice schemes were not replaced by YTS, the idea was to make it attractive to take on apprentices which had been falling out of favour in the socialist chaos of the late 60's early 70's. Can't blame Thatcher for the cynical use of the system by some employers.
The worst abuses these days are by the retail sector, who purposely give limited contracts to keep under the lel for NI safe in the knowledge that Cyclop's tax credits will take up the slack.
 

endure

GCM
Not sure how you replace a 4 year engineering apprenticeship with a 6 month YTS scheme. I did my apprenticeship in the 70's with the Army, two years full time at brats followed by upgrading courses.
My Brother did 4 years as a tool room turner apprentice with Fairey Winches, 4 years 1977-1981.
All apprentice schemes were not replaced by YTS, the idea was to make it attractive to take on apprentices which had been falling out of favour in the socialist chaos of the late 60's early 70's. Can't blame Thatcher for the cynical use of the system by some employers.
The worst abuses these days are by the retail sector, who purposely give limited contracts to keep under the lel for NI safe in the knowledge that Cyclop's tax credits will take up the slack.


The YTS scheme I did was 6 months leading up to a level 3 C&G so you had to have some electronic experience to be accepted. I went in with level 3 radio and radar techs quals and came out with level 3 microprocessor quals.

It was hard work.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Is there a place for compulsory National Service for young adults? Not necessarily military service but disciplined service.
 
Is there a place for compulsory National Service for young adults? Not necessarily military service but disciplined service.
How are you going to discipline them?
 
I read the thread title and instantly though: "Education, Education, Education", but wisely searched for the responses of others before I posted.

But it's true. And possibly a lesson for some in our society who hop onto a bandwagon before researching the truth. I bet they start their sentences with conjunctions, too.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
How are you going to discipline them?
For the most part peer pressure and for the incorrigible a few hard men (and women) same as compulsory military service.
 
For the most part peer pressure and for the incorrigible a few hard men (and women) same as compulsory military service.
Peer pressure is laughable in rough areas and the military isnt there to babysit bellthronks and even if it was, the tools are no longer there for disciplining people who dont want to be there.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
It’s very difficult to convince people that have a stake in society if they feel that the mainstream of society oppresses them.
It's very noticeable that some of the BLM backlash videos posted on YouTube and elsewhere over the last few days have been by black people telling black people to get a grip.

Look at how you've written what you have. They 'feel' oppressed. That's very different from being oppressed.

Didn't get that job? Is it your skin colour, or is it that the other candidate was better-suited for reasons other than race? But fùck it, let's blame institutional racism.

Another police stop-and-search? Is that racism, or based on the prevalence of street crime and drug dealing among those of your ethnicity, and your behaviour gave reason to believe that you were acting suspiciously. But fùck it, let's blame institutional racism.

If those within a cohort are continually reinforcing to each other that whatever fate befalls them is because of racism, then they're always going to see racism whether it exists or is the cause or not. It's the fallback reason.

It's noticeable how when people step outside a cohort, for instance they get 'lucky' and get a job, or do something inherently foolish like join the army, their perceptions change because that reinforcement of perceptions is no longer there.

Perhaps what needs to happen more is that people are challenged on their challenges - that they get asked why something is 'racist' rather than just being allowed to assert (to themselves as much as anything) that they're victims of racism.

A problem there of course is that to even challenge is to be branded racist. That's where it becomes impossible.

That aside, removing the 'reason' and therefore the fallback perception would do a lot of good.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I read the thread title and instantly though: "Education, Education, Education", but wisely searched for the responses of others before I posted.

But it's true. And possibly a lesson for some in our society who hop onto a bandwagon before researching the truth. I bet they start their sentences with conjunctions, too.
So what you're saying is...
 

StBob072

LE
Book Reviewer
How are you going to discipline them?

Carrot and stick?

I'm not talking about beastings, merely stongly instilling the idea that actions have consequences either positive or negative.
 

In_Twists

Old-Salt
By not pandering to shitcunts all the time.
By not blaming society all the time.

For example the Army is an excellent way for poor/uneducated people to turn their lives around, yet it still has to recruit from abroad because the native population cant be arsed. Its easier to mong it.

Something needs to happen to make it not easy to do jack shit.
 
Carrot and stick?

I'm not talking about beastings, merely stongly instilling the idea that actions have consequences.
But they dont at that age. That's the point. If they did, schools wouldnt be facing the problems that they do with disruptive children.
I'm all for thrashing the little ******* to an inch of their lives, but those punishment are long gone.
 
I went from bright kid due to go grammar to bright kid thrown in a compo full of mongs due to Labour policy of the day. Environment not conducive to learning and thus learned **** all. Had I gone grammar I'm quite sure I'd have spent more time watching the blackboard rather than my back. A truly dreadful experience.

Corporal punishment didn't have the slightest effect.
 
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Not sure how you replace a 4 year engineering apprenticeship with a 6 month YTS scheme. I did my apprenticeship in the 70's with the Army, two years full time at brats followed by upgrading courses.
My Brother did 4 years as a tool room turner apprentice with Fairey Winches, 4 years 1977-1981.
All apprentice schemes were not replaced by YTS, the idea was to make it attractive to take on apprentices which had been falling out of favour in the socialist chaos of the late 60's early 70's. Can't blame Thatcher for the cynical use of the system by some employers.
The worst abuses these days are by the retail sector, who purposely give limited contracts to keep under the lel for NI safe in the knowledge that Cyclop's tax credits will take up the slack.

Well you obviously can’t replace a 4 year apprenticeship with a six month course. You can save an enormous amount of money though by going ahead and trying to. Many apprenticeships, particularly in the building industry in the wet trades such as bricklaying and plastering were run by local authorities.

At the stroke of a pen, the government changed the future of many thousands of youngsters by abolishing all those schemes run by local authorities. When I was a young man back in the 1970’s, there were two principal routes into employment for most people. One was to just go out and get a job. Employment was mostly easy to obtain and once you had decided what you wanted to try, you would have a look around and usually get a job. The money often wasn’t great but that went up with experience.

The second route was through an apprenticeship. The money was usually fairly poor for the duration of the apprenticeship and you had to knuckle down and do as you were told. Once you had finished the apprenticeship though, things changed quite substantially. Your wages went up considerably and you now possessed certified skills that would see you do well for the rest of your working life.

It wasn’t just local authorities that ran apprentice schemes either. British Gas and all the other major utility companies had apprentice schemes. In fact, a huge amount of companies had apprentice schemes and the government would have been subsidising those schemes.

By withdrawing government support, Thatchers government consigned much the youth of the day to either unemployment or a future in low paid unskilled work. The stage was set for youngsters to enter a career filling supermarket shelves or all sorts of other kinds of low paid work with either very little or no future prospects at all.

In fact, the employment market was turned completely around on it’s head for everybody. Something that curiously, many of those who’s personal prospects nosedived because of these changes, seemed unable to appreciate and they obligingly like lemmings looked for the nearest cliff!
 

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