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How Do We Create a Fairer Society? (Without destroying everything)

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
How do we create a fairer society without destroying everything?

Black Lives Matters has traction because most BAMES believe they are impacted by racism and It would ridiculous to deny it.

It’s undoubtedly true that BAMES are more likely (than the average indigenous population) to have confrontational encounters with the police and other authorities.

This is also true of ‘white trash’. Many of them have confrontational encounters with authorities.

Of course the reason that many people have confrontational encounters with the police is that they are breaking the law or are themselves confrontational when they encounter the police.

It was reported recently that the UK has one of the worst records of social mobility. It doesn’t matter how aspirational or how ambitious people at the bottom are they are unlikely to claw their way up - legally at least.

All societies can be reformed. How do we reform society to make it fairer for all.
 

green_slime

Old-Salt
society, like life, should not be fair. It should be just with equal opportunity (and we are pretty good on this in comparison with other countries and still improving.)

A good start would be to stop driving divisions and finding offence where it does not exist.
 
How do we create a fairer society without destroying everything?

Black Lives Matters has traction because most BAMES believe they are impacted by racism and It would ridiculous to deny it.

It’s undoubtedly true that BAMES are more likely (than the average indigenous population) to have confrontational encounters with the police and other authorities.

This is also true of ‘white trash’. Many of them have confrontational encounters with authorities.

Of course the reason that many people have confrontational encounters with the police is that they are breaking the law or are themselves confrontational when they encounter the police.

It was reported recently that the UK has one of the worst records of social mobility. It doesn’t matter how aspirational or how ambitious people at the bottom are they are unlikely to claw their way up - legally at least.

All societies can be reformed. How do we reform society to make it fairer for all.

By not pandering to shitcunts all the time.
By not blaming society all the time.

For example the Army is an excellent way for poor/uneducated people to turn their lives around, yet it still has to recruit from abroad because the native population cant be arsed. Its easier to mong it.
 
I think it is going to be very difficult to design a totem pole on which the thick, the idle and the useless do not appear at the bottom.

School is the place to change lives for the better, but I don't really know enough about it to go beyond 'man in the pub ' level of insight.

I do think with the target culture the 'hard to teach' ones, who really need the help and aren't going to get it from home get dropped too easily mainly because they mash the stats up.

It's not knowledge so much as attitude that'll get you through.
 
How do we create a fairer society without destroying everything?

Black Lives Matters has traction because most BAMES believe they are impacted by racism

Do they - or is it like Corbynites - they are a minority bit courtesy of face ache etc believe they are the vast majority. (Edit - this is intended as a genuine question)

Theres certainly plenty of BAME (who tellingly tend to be of a conservative nature) that perceive racism to be a minor issue perpetrated by a few idiots of all colours vs the racism is only one way and endemic pushed by BAME who are rather left wing.

There really is a political divide In this with the left running full grievance mode and the right throwing out statistics and facts. (Sadly without addressing the Elephant in the room of WHY the stats are like that which is what BLM should be focused on - but as its a failing of both left and right its studiously ignored).

It was reported recently that the UK has one of the worst records of social mobility. It doesn’t matter how aspirational or how ambitious people at the bottom are they are unlikely to claw their way up - legally at least.

We probably do - but then look at how we attack any one who does claw themselves up - then add in telling everyone No need to put in effort the world owes you a living but if you dont make it as a super rich playboy etc its because of Boris / Blair / The Rich / immigrants etc.

All societies can be reformed. How do we reform society to make it fairer for all.

Stop the grievance bollocks

Constant media pushes that suggest all men are rapists, all whites are racist are creating a situation where people having been force fed the your always a potential victim to the extent that every encounter is viewed through that prism - thus an innocent but inadvertant interaction takes on a sinister dimension - its disempowering.

Even the less sinister White Privelage - Its in effect You mr dark skinned Chap can never succeed - because most people are white and they wont let you - Its disempowering.

Stop the attitude of if you are from this group and you succeed / vote the wrong way - youre a traitor.

Set fire to every newspaper office in the land

In short stop generating a victim culture in order to profit from that demographics votes.

Bring out true equality for example** - if youre going after mogg for opposition to gay marriage - then go after Bame as well - otherwise you foster resentment which in turn feeds into (in this instance) the far right hands

After this
Education - focus on sink estates - focus on socio economic factors - its already been demonstrated that the worst off group on sink estates is young white male - because the focus was on getting more BAME - because they were under represented -and in doing so missed the obvious that it wasnt race that drove the divide poorly thought out policies anger all sides and contribute to a sense of injustice and perception of inequality however well intentioned they are.
 
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BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
By not pandering to shitcunts all the time.
By not blaming society all the time.

For example the Army is an excellent way for poor/uneducated people to turn their lives around, yet it still has to recruit from abroad because the native population cant be arsed. Its easier to mong it.


QUOTE="green_slime, post: 10079617, member: 6008"]
society, like life, should not be fair. It should be just with equal opportunity (and we are pretty good on this in comparison with other countries and still improving.)

A good start would be to stop driving divisions and finding offence where it does not exist.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you say but it isn’t working. Wishing it to be so isn’t enough. How do we actually do it?

Clearly there is something wrong in our education system. It fails fails far too many children.

I’ve heard anecdotal evidence that in some schools in Dundee they have had less than 20% engagement with pupils during lockdown. Teachers say they have had little or no contact with parents despite multi platforms attempts to contact them.

Hoe do we overcome generational indifference?

I think part of the answer is in giving people a stake in society - again easy to say - or removing the barriers to them having a stake in society. People going to work and contributing through that work or through the taxes they pay helps.
I think changing drugs policy, which brings so many people into conflict with the law would help.

Insisting that people learn to speak English would help.

Not pandering to divisiveness but also considering reasonable calls for reform.

In Cyprus (and in Hong Kong when I was there) many calls for abimal welfare reforms are lead by western Expats and often met with indifference or opposition by the majority of settled population.

Just because ‘we’re’ not bothered by a statue of Colson doesn’t mean that other people are wrong to be bothered by it. Most of us on this site were quite happy to see the statue of Sean Russel (an IRA terrorist and Nazi collaborator) removed in Dublin. Most of us would like to see the Irish Republic acknowledge it’s terrorist past.
 
I do think with the target culture the 'hard to teach' ones, who really need the help and aren't going to get it from home get dropped too easily mainly because they mash the stats up.

It's not knowledge so much as attitude that'll get you through.

Stop telling everyone they need a degree - lets bring back focus on real non academic subjects (rather than dumbed down degrees in "is Donald Duck more influential than Alvin") - teach people who aren't academic a trade - a skillset relevant to life.

This was torn down along with grammer schools because youre removing opportunities from people (and saying theyre stupid** ) - but ignores many of these people were never going to have a chance of succeeding at higher education - so instead of acknowledging this we thrust them into worthless mickey mouse degrees - debt and failure.

All because of a flawed aspiration to have everyone go to university rather than just the educationally elite and no I wouldn't be a grad student under my own criteria - at last not in my careers field - my maths topped out at HND level - the words J notation and imaginary numbers still give me palpatations. I have thought of doing a degree in History - but im under no illusions that would lead to work.

**Sadly a real issue in the UK - work with your hands you must be stupid - - I did once have the pleasure of pointing out to a chap - who declared I seemed to smart to be a mechanic - that I wasn't getting out of bed for his pay
 
Just because ‘we’re’ not bothered by a statue of Colson doesn’t mean that other people are wrong to be bothered by it. Most of us on this site were quite happy to see the statue of Sean Russel (an IRA terrorist and Nazi collaborator) removed in Dublin. Most of us would like to see the Irish Republic acknowledge it’s terrorist past.

I don't remember anyone from here pulling it down,
Also Sean Russel is within living memory, no living person in the UK has ever known a black slave from the time that we legally had slavery.
William Wallace killed Englishmen, but no one is offended that the Jocks have a statue of him, because no living person knew anyone he killed.
 
[/QUOTE]
I think part of the answer is in giving people a stake in society - again easy to say - or removing the barriers to them having a stake in society. People going to work and contributing through that work or through the taxes they pay helps.
[/QUOTE]

I mist admit its why I was a fan of the 10% tax band - it made low earners consider how money was spent - they had a vested interest.

It doesn't matter that - by shifting NI etc they paid no more - they now saw the words tax

[/QUOTE]

Insisting that people learn to speak English would help.

[/QUOTE]

This - France doesn't translate documents into 50 languages - or pay for translator - you need that - you do it yourself.

What France does is give language lessons

Of course this is racist and makes it harder for immigrants - and perhaps it does at 1st but your prospects are enhanced long term.

Im a "Victim" of the French system and think its far better, so my perspective isn't simply its greener over there.
 
BAME activists don't want to be equal, they are already treated better, they want better than better.

If they had equality then the quotas would go, as would the hate crimes and hate speech laws. The Police might actually be able to do their jobs and stop and search in London and save a lot of BAME lives but that's not enough, they want more.
 
How do we create a fairer society without destroying everything?

Could you describe fair ?

As an example.

Not everyone who joins the Army are going to reach the dizzy heights of General for Officers or WO 1 for Other Ranks. Ditto the RAF and Navy. ( Is this fair ? )

Not everyone is going to achieve the dizzy heights of the President or CEO of a Company. ( Is this fair ? )

What we can do is:

1. Start acknowledging failure from an early age.

2. Stop rewarding failure.

The World / a Country does not owe anyone a living, it is up to individuals to go out into that World and blaze their own path.
 
There is a lot of talk about "change" in the media.
It seems this change must come from the non BAME members of society. Perhaps a change of attitude from both sides is the way forward(?)
 
Send all the socialists to somewhere like Zimbabwe so they can live out their socialist dreams far away from us
 
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I think part of the answer is in giving people a stake in society - again easy to say - or removing the barriers to them having a stake in society. People going to work and contributing through that work or through the taxes they pay helps.
[/QUOTE]

I mist admit its why I was a fan of the 10% tax band - it made low earners consider how money was spent - they had a vested interest.

It doesn't matter that - by shifting NI etc they paid no more - they now saw the words tax

[/QUOTE]

Insisting that people learn to speak English would help.

[/QUOTE]

This - France doesn't translate documents into 50 languages - or pay for translator - you need that - you do it yourself.

What France does is give language lessons

Of course this is racist and makes it harder for immigrants - and perhaps it does at 1st but your prospects are enhanced long term.

Im a "Victim" of the French system and think its far better, so my perspective isn't simply its greener over there.
[/QUOTE]

OK, wee bit of track.
Spain also expects you to learn Spanish and doesn't translate all documents etc. They also expect you to speak Spanish at a GP consultation or bring an interpreter with you. The council also provides free Spanish lessons.

Does it encourage integration and people to learn the language? judging by the complaints on the local social media site then no, it doesn't. Not among the Brits, anyway. They were even calling for a petition to the council that all GPs working at the local med centre must be able to speak English (I kid you not, that was suggested and they were serious).

I do find speaking the language has made it a far better experience for me.
 
How do we create a fairer society without destroying everything?

By ruthlessly destroying divisive groups that are seeking to further their agendas through cultural cleansing of those who don't belong to their group.

The current cultural cleansing that is going on is the start of an extremely dangerous process. It started with statues, now white programmes are being removed from our media. What next? Having to walk around with an armband on if you don't have any black in you?

As far as I'm concerned, BLM are straight out of the 1930's. No wonder they wanted to deface Churchill's statue.

Make society fairer by ruthlessly destroying groups like BLM.
 
I think part of the answer is in giving people a stake in society - again easy to say - or removing the barriers to

OK, wee bit of track.
Spain also expects you to learn Spanish and doesn't translate all documents etc. They also expect you to speak Spanish at a GP consultation or bring an interpreter with you. The council also provides free Spanish lessons.

Does it encourage integration and people to learn the language? judging by the complaints on the local social media site then no, it doesn't. Not among the Brits, anyway. They were even calling for a petition to the council that all GPs working at the local med centre must be able to speak English (I kid you not, that was suggested and they were serious).

I do find speaking the language has made it a far better experience for me.

Ref Bold - the problem there is that
1) the system enables British expats to be idle shites
2) The expat community in Spain is the exception that proves the rule -
Take 5 million brits dump them in Pakistan with the same level of care integration assistance and forethought as Blairs stick it to whitey mass immigration policy and you would have much the same issues in Pakistan as there are with un-integrated communities in the UK. Spain escapes this because much of the non integrated ex pat community is older and childless and if not financially independent can rely on Tourism - where speaking English is the global default.
 
Clearly there is something wrong in our education system. It fails fails far too many children.
I could make the same statement about anything. The education system is far from perfect but to lump the blame on 'the system' is putting the cart before the horse.

There are 8766 hours in a year. With 100% attendance, no trips, no wanky off-timetable events etc a child is in a taught environment for roughly 1100 of those hours (assuming 5 hours of lessons plus half an hour tutorial / assembly per day). That's less than 13% of the year. Even if we're being charitable and assuming 8 hours of sleep per day (much more than a lot of them actually get) lesson time is still less than 20% of waking hours.

The rest of the time the influences are parents, peers and TV/the internet. Chances are if you're a low achieving child in early primary that's because your parents haven't done much with you at home in terms of reading, writing, telling the time on a clock etc. I've heard horror stories of kids turning up at primary school aged 5 in nappies because they still haven't been toilet trained.

In a similar vein, if you are a low achieving child at early stages in primary your peer group will likely consist of other low achieving children. By the time you get to Year 6 and transition to secondary you will rapidly form a new peer group. Guess who the low achievers tend to bond with? Yep, other low achievers.

Edit - just for a bit of recent context I've looked at reports sent home last week to my bunch of misfits. In a result that will shock absolutely no one, the kids who were working hard in school still tend to be working hard at home. Those that wasted their time and avoided learning in lessons are doing very little at home. The regular truants who turned up to school maybe half the time have done absolutely nothing. Colour me surprised that attitude is the best indicator of success.

How do we overcome generational indifference?
Not a clue.
 
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School is the place to change lives for the better, but I don't really know enough about it to go beyond 'man in the pub ' level of insight.

I do think with the target culture the 'hard to teach' ones, who really need the help and aren't going to get it from home get dropped too easily mainly because they mash the stats up.
It's borderline impossible to get students removed from the league table stats on exam passes. It can happen but each case must be individually approved by someone at the DfE.

My place has had a number of kids that have left the school (in one case a child was moved from their previous school which had expelled them and never attended my school in over 3 years) but, unless they have officially moved to a new school which has agreed to take responsibility for them, their exam results are used to judge us.

There are ways that heads try to game the system but that's much more based on which subjects are offered and the exam entries than getting rid of kids. Offering BTECs and vocational courses that gave more 'pass grades' than the equivalent GCSE was popular for a while until that was clamped down on.

Now lots of places are focussing on the EBacc subjects and Progress 8 scores - subjects that don't fit in those umbrella qualifications are chinned off. Doing RS, a language and a technology was mandatory when I did my GCSEs but most schools are making them optional to avoid the massive drag in the exam results.

After this
Education - focus on sink estates - focus on socio economic factors - its already been demonstrated that the worst off group on sink estates is young white male
It's being done and has been done for years. Disadvantaged pupils are labelled 'Pupil Premium', get a separate funding allowance from the government to be used at the discretion of the school and the school is judged on how well those students do compared to the non-Pupil Premium students.

PP includes anyone whose family are on benefits or have been at any point in the last 6 years (regardless of current income), those Looked After in foster care or children's homes and a couple of other scenarios including having a parent in the Forces (regardless of rank, I taught a Major's son a few years ago who was eligible for PP funding but turned it down). Teachers are expected to know who their PP kids are, give them more attention than the other students, mark their work in more depth and explain what individual strategies they are using to help those children succeed. Skin colour / ethnic background have no influence on PP.

As I posted a few minutes ago, the time that children spend in school is relatively tiny compared to the time they spend with family, friends and online. Changing the local culture towards education is the issue but I have no idea how to do that or if it's even possible as a directed outcome rather than happening naturally.
 
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