How can our chubby, drug-addled and right-on Army protect us from our enemies?

Two safety vehicles aren't enough to meet the requirement of casevacing every casualty who doesn't have life threatening injuries.

You'd need a fleet of vehicles, unless you have a holding vehicle and a medic to assess and stabilise them, with a vehicle in reserve to evacuate the emergencies.
I can see @stacker1's point about not wanting to be the one carrying the can when the CoC slopes shoulders. To quote Yossarian, you'd be mad to think any other way. However it still doesn't make sense as an SOP:

1. Take two jack wagons on a run. As per SOP
2. Have incident. Send one wagon back to camp with cas.
3. You now have only one jack wagon. So are now non-compliant with SOP. Return to camp. In which case second jack wagon is superfluous?
 
I can see @stacker1's point about not wanting to be the one carrying the can when the CoC slopes shoulders. To quote Yossarian, you'd be mad to think any other way. However it still doesn't make sense as an SOP:

1. Take two jack wagons on a run. As per SOP
2. Have incident. Send one wagon back to camp with cas.
3. You now have only one jack wagon. So are now non-compliant with SOP. Return to camp. In which case second jack wagon is superfluous?
Re point 3: you cannot of course run back to camp as you are now diffy one jack wagon. So how do you get the lads* back? Walk very carefully?

*Being fully woke, when I say 'lads' I mean humans of any gender. Or none.
 
Re point 3: you cannot of course run back to camp as you are now diffy one jack wagon. So how do you get the lads* back? Walk very carefully?

*Being fully woke, when I say 'lads' I mean humans of any gender. Or none.
Indeed. Which points to the earlier post. It seems like the Army has lost its way here in terms of risk assessments. Which is bad enough when schools stop kids playing conkers, but potentially fatal in a field of endeavour which fundamentally involves taking risks. I'm not saying the Army should abandon H&S, just use it in the way it was intended.
 
The RA matrix is a simple formula.

Likelihood of occurrence V severity of occurrence = score on scale of acceptance.

Civvy organisers of an event have to meet an acceptable level of risk mitigation or they're in the shit.

Nobody expects them to eliminate risk, but it seems that the military have imposed greater standards than those imposed in the real world.

The greatest lunacy is the immediate evacuation of cas minor, creating a disproportionate logistical burden.

If every casualty requires a wagon, how many wagons do you have on standby?
I thought you didn’t give a shit?
 
I can see @stacker1's point about not wanting to be the one carrying the can when the CoC slopes shoulders. To quote Yossarian, you'd be mad to think any other way. However it still doesn't make sense as an SOP:

1. Take two jack wagons on a run. As per SOP
2. Have incident. Send one wagon back to camp with cas.
3. You now have only one jack wagon. So are now non-compliant with SOP. Return to camp. In which case second jack wagon is superfluous?
This is all getting a bit silly now as usual because people are reacting to part stories as usual, because they don’t have access to the current regulations as usual :)

A risk assessment is required for the activity (as well as dynamic risk assessment throughout), this is a normal process for both mil & civ.

For certain physical activity it is mandated that a safety vehicle is present otherwise the activity can’t take place. Additionally for some activity it is recommended that 2 vehicles are used. This is to allow the activity to continue if one has to leave the activity and is recommended for activity such as AFT/OFT and other activity that takes additional planning and would be a waste of resource if stopped. A sensible precaution seen as the soldiers probably started queuing at the armoury at 0400 for a 0900 start :)

Additionally, there are extra control measures, such as ‘wet bulb’ readings and if someone goes down with suspected heat exhaustion, the activity is to cease for everyone.

If some people get over zealous or miss interpret the regulation and take 2 jack wagons out for a collective dog walking session, well you just can’t legislate or regulate for some people ^~
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
How do your lads develop and maintain their aerobic fitness. Just curious, no particular dog in this fight.
Loading up his personal 40' trailer with "buckshee" stores items weekly.
 
I can see @stacker1's point about not wanting to be the one carrying the can when the CoC slopes shoulders. To quote Yossarian, you'd be mad to think any other way. However it still doesn't make sense as an SOP:

1. Take two jack wagons on a run. As per SOP
2. Have incident. Send one wagon back to camp with cas.
3. You now have only one jack wagon. So are now non-compliant with SOP. Return to camp. In which case second jack wagon is superfluous?
Even if you're running a Marathon as part of PT, the furthest you could possibly be from camp is 13 miles. If you're at the remotest camp in the UK without any other possible means of rescue should the remainder of the squad get hit by a comet, that means you would be ~ at most ~ without the second wagon for 43 minutes (which would clearly reduce because from the furthest point you would be running back towards camp).

In reality, a squadded run is more likely to be around 6 miles or so - I've never done one more than 10 miles but am willing to hear different from the 1st Bn Marathon Rifles members, so you know, the time you'll be without one wagon is likely to be less than half of that, so on a 6.5 mile run, 21.5 minutes maximum. On average that would be 11 minutes and 15 seconds you only have one wagon. If you average this again, and worse case scenario is you pick up another injury when your second wagon is back at camp - the furthest away - you might have to wait five minutes for the second wagon to return whilst you have no wagons. I would suggest that after the second incident, your run is paused or cancelled.

I see you've posted about having to walk back further downthread - well so what, they can walk for the five minutes it takes for the wagon situation to be resolved or indeed walk the whole massive three miles back to camp taking at average walking pace maybe an hour.

Maybe the people who wrote the guidelines where you're advised to have two jackwagons actually did the maths and worked out the minimum amount of wagons required to cover a normal unit squadded run and not the hyperbolic ultramarathon in the Sahara you are suggesting.

Just sayin'.
 
Hence why a medic on station is the safe bet.

Insisting on every casualty being evacuated immediately, regardless of their condition, raises the question of how many vehicles are required.

First cas goes down with a soft tissue injury - casevac'd.

Second cas goes down with a similar injury soon after - casevac'd.

What happens with subsequent casualties, particularly those who have life threatening injuries?

Overreaction to minor injuries leads to more potential for danger to the major injuries.
Again unless things have changed, the medic is really only qualified to give treatment to what he observes - he's not qualified to assess the severity of an injury and what an individual can/cannot do - yeah they do this, but their opinion is no more valid than the layperson imo. Personally, I used to always urge on the caution and refer to a doc, or for X-rays (in our med centre you just had to take the form to the doc and he would sign it off), take them off PT if they said an old injury was occurring etc (sure some people may have blagged it, but others shouldn't suffer because of that).

I know not all medics thought this was and a couple of times I witnessed some really bizarre decisions (acting well beyond their level of competence) on some things that turned out to be much more serious than the medic assumed.
 
Again unless things have changed, the medic is really only qualified to give treatment to what he observes - he's not qualified to assess the severity of an injury and what an individual can/cannot do - yeah they do this, but their opinion is no more valid than the layperson imo. Personally, I used to always urge on the caution and refer to a doc, or for X-rays (in our med centre you just had to take the form to the doc and he would sign it off), take them off PT if they said an old injury was occurring etc (sure some people may have blagged it, but others shouldn't suffer because of that).

I know not all medics thought this was and a couple of times I witnessed some really bizarre decisions on some things that turned out to be much more serious than the medic assumed.
I still have fond memories of the lads carrying a mate up to the guardroom in his 2s for sick parade after he been run over (pissed in the middle of the road) at the weekend. He then got a show again with overnight bag, fortunately someone with some common intervened and off to hospital he went.
 
COLONEL TIM COLLINS: How can our chubby, drug-addled and right-on Army protect us from our enemies? | Daily Mail Online

No paywall to bar anyone from reading. Good Daily Mail (or Mail on Sunday) fodder for the outraged classes before Church and a sermon on 'Life is a Cheeseburger' or whatever.

This part is more worrying than much of the rest, in my opinion:


- Which followed on from the Executive Summary:


We continue to dribble on about 'leadership' and 'management' in these columns, but tend (+/-) to miss the very highest elements of the strategic level; those which shape the actual requirement for a defence capability of any sort. Given the weird state of HMF over the past few years, the 'lawfare' treatment of soldiers (but oddly, not the more senior officers), the vast indefensible aircraft carriers, the ludicrous prioritising of identity politics within the ranks etc, I sometimes feel that the whole area of defence is too important for politicians to handle; someone else could surely do a better job. We need a Tsar.
I may be a little on the heavy side but I don't do drugs (yet) and I am far from right-on (I have been described as a write off).
 
I still have fond memories of the lads carrying a mate up to the guardroom in his 2s for sick parade after he been run over (pissed in the middle of the road) at the weekend. He then got a show again with overnight bag, fortunately someone with some common intervened and off to hospital he went.
Just want to two-shits you here mate.

My brother had to stand on Monday Morning parade at Deepcut with a mate holding him up for half an hour before he was allowed to go on sick parade.

After Sick Parade at the Med Centre and a RAMC Cpl shitting himself, he got a quick drive up to Frimley A&E with the Duty Wheels where the diagnosis was "Yes, you've broken your back".
 
Just want to two-shits you here mate.

My brother had to stand on Monday Morning parade at Deepcut with a mate holding him up for half an hour before he was allowed to go on sick parade.

After Sick Parade at the Med Centre and a RAMC Cpl shitting himself, he got a quick drive up to Frimley A&E with the Duty Wheels where the diagnosis was "Yes, you've broken your back".
Ha, I have actually had three shits this morning!!!
 
Who cares? 2 wagons is really not a big deal is it.
If you times that by all the PT sessions daily across the military and work out the actual amount of occasions that they are required for an actual injury, as opposed to a tired soldier, then it will not remotely be good value for taxpayers money.
 
If you times that by all the PT sessions daily across the military and work out the actual amount of occasions that they are required for an actual injury, as opposed to a tired soldier, then it will not remotely be good value for taxpayers money.
Whereas breaking soldiers and paying compensation to them, then having to replace that soldier with a new one due to a lack of reasonable measures being taken is good value?

You utter mentalist.
 
Whereas breaking soldiers and paying compensation to them, then having to replace that soldier with a new one due to a lack of reasonable measures being taken is good value?

You utter mentalist.
This compensation for having been broken, where does one apply and is it backdated?
 
How do your lads develop and maintain their aerobic fitness. Just curious, no particular dog in this fight.
They generally run in their own time.
 
Just want to two-shits you here mate.

My brother had to stand on Monday Morning parade at Deepcut with a mate holding him up for half an hour before he was allowed to go on sick parade.

After Sick Parade at the Med Centre and a RAMC Cpl shitting himself, he got a quick drive up to Frimley A&E with the Duty Wheels where the diagnosis was "Yes, you've broken your back".

What sort of pink and fluffy shit was going on at Deepcut at that time?

Give the **** 2 burofen and possibly some tubigrip then **** him off back to work.
 
This compensation for having been broken, where does one apply and is it backdated?
Depends on when said injury occurred.

There are a number of compensation schemes administered by Veterans UK on behalf of the Ministry of Defence available to serving and former serving personnel who are injured as a result of their service in the Armed Forces. The scheme that applies to each individual will depend on when and where you served.

  • The Armed Forces Compensation Scheme (AFCS)
You can claim under the AFCS where the illness or injury was caused as a result of service on or after 6 April 2005. You do not need to have left the Armed Forces before claiming.

  • The War Pensions Scheme (WPS)
You can claim under the WPS if you are no longer serving and your disablement was caused as a result of service in the Armed Forces before 6 April 2005.

Armed forces compensation: what you need to know
 
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