How Bl00dy Dare they?

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by error_unknown, Feb 28, 2003.

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  1. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
    The following is a genuine letter which was recently printed in the Mail:

    "When my son put on a Territorial Army uniform he accepted that soldiers sometimes go to war. He was not advised, however, that he could be ruined financially.

    He has been called up and is awaiting deployment to the Gulf. His army pay will be substantially less than his civilian salary.

    He will be unable to pay his mortgage or fully meet his other commitments and will return to a repossessed house and County Court debt judgements......."

    Well the stupid B***t**d should have thought of that before he took the Queen's Shilling shouldn't he? I bet he was more than happy to turn up for a two week camp and a couple of drill nights in order to collect his bounty though!

    Honestly this really makes my blood boil. I don't think for a second that the majority of the TA are of this ilk, but this fella deserves everything he gets. If the pay was going to be that much of a problem then why didn't he join an arm that would provide him with trade pay that is comparable to his civvy job?

    'Nuff said, Happy again now ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
     
  2. Can't he get an RHA?
     
  3. havin been Reg then TA Then Reg as i was called up under colour service for bosnia and then re-enlsited again (not S type service0 i have sat and listend to the mess forum!  
    1.    If we go to war sod the TA as i have a good job
    2.    I am only here for the money and not the service
    3.    Why should i have to go as my employer wont let    
          me go as they wont keep my job open.

    Sod them i have been back in 8 years after serving 5 and i think that to get that bounty that i got for 4 years is wrong to refuse to serve the crown!!!!!

    Give the bounty every year for retention and see what happens.  B£$%^&*(s 8) :-[ :-X :-/ :'( :mad:

     have seen some of the waisters that join the TA  
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. I think what you are trying to say, is that the Army doesn't want any of the high quality people who, despite having good, well paid jobs, give up their spare time to be in the TA because they believe in service etc....

    Because basically asking someone to render their family homeless and to destroy their professional career is too much. Perhaps if the army had made that clear 6 years ago I wouldn't have been selfish enough to take the bounty and give up my weekends/holidays.

    What a load of Arrse.

    Why don't you engage brain before going to computer?

    There are a couple of wasters out there who will run away/appeal because they are scum, but there are also people who have always been told that in the event of call up they will not lose their homes/jobs, and are now finding out that they have been sold a dummy by the army.

    Which arm has a trade that provides pay in the order of a quarter of a mill? I know a TA NCO who earns that, is he a bad person for being in a well paid job?
     
  5. I have taken 29 Bounties on the understanding that it is a payment for being ready and willing to be called out.

    I have my brown envelope and have no arguments against being called out.

    Equally I know people who will. even with RHA take a fair old pay cut, and whilst they have winced (and let's face it who wouldn't) they are going.

    It's quite simple, if you take the shilling, you take everything that goes with it. If you don't want to play by the rules kindly go away and don't embarass the rest of us.
     
  6. woopert

    woopert LE Moderator

    Aaaah the old Cost Of Living Increment (COLI) issues again!

    The Reserve Forces Act makes provision for COLI to be paid when it can be evidenced that the outgoings of a TA soldier during a period of deployment exceed the pay of the equivalent regular rank. COLI will pay the difference between the pay-in-rank and a maximum ceiling of £70,000 for non-commissioned ranks and more in increments for officers above the rank of Major.

    Basically you would have to be earning more than £70K a year to be out of pocket, and outside of the TA in London (in uints like the ICCY, HAC, RY, and CG) there are very few soldiers who earn that. If matey is loosing out because he has been called up and isn't claiming (legitimately) his COLI, then he is a muppet who deserves what he gets.
     
  7. Woop - it's not as simple as that.  The level of COLI is set by your substantive ranks on mobilisation - which has absolutely no logic at all other than one generated by the Army stillbeing a class-ridden organisation that finds it difficult to understand that a TA JNCO might actually hold down a resonsible and highly paid job in civvie street - long gone are the days when all TA Pte were jobbing brickie's mates.  It's ironic that this is the case since a large point of the TA is so that the Army can hold on to highly skilled specialist individuals they might need once in a blue moon.  COLI has been comprehensively f*cked up in the past.  I can't believe they still haven't sorted it.  Does anyone know what happened to the unit that took a QC along to point out the LEGAL definition of 'hardship' to the clowns at Chilwell ?
     
  8. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    Poncho Rhino:  "Well the stupid B***t**d should have thought of that before he took the Queen's Shilling shouldn't he? I bet he was more than happy to turn up for a two week camp and a couple of drill nights in order to collect his bounty though!"

    Stop, unload. Go away.  Your comment is based on perhaps a little less understanding than it needs so I shall do my best to help you out.

    When our young STAB took HM shilling he might, like me, have been 17 years old and that the daily rate of pay isn't bad for a student type aged 17.  He might, like me now be 31 years old and earn an awful lot more and maybe his TA career hasn't kept up or just as likely, it couldn't possibly because the government sector can and won't pay as much as private sector.  Nor normally will it promote as fast.  

    You will therefore end up with a situation when a guy can be a Capt./Cpl within a reserve forces unit and a Dept Mgr whilst he's running a big dept. or something in his civvie job.  

    The only problem is that come call-out for continuation of Israeli-foreign-policy-by-another-country old Cpl/Capt. here will be for a big pay cut.  
    1.  He should know this and quit the TA,  :'(
    2.  The government in order to prevent losing good capable people should do more to match their salaries on call out (after all - this is the cheap army the politicians have at their disposal) and  8)
    3. The govt. should really develop their regular personel to a degree where they don't want to quit for civvie street all the time and therefore the need for the TA diminishes to an absolute emergency HERE COME THE REDS  :p thing like twenty years ago.
     
  9. The letter sounds a bit confused to me.  Called up TA (like me) can claim COLI in the form of Reservists Standard and Reservists Hardship Allowances.  These allowances are admittedly administered by jobsworth morons at Worthy Down but even so there is no way that anyone should lose their house over it.  

    However in the past the TA (including me) have been told that if they were called out in peacetime they would not lose out financially.  This is not true, and the effects on recruitment and retention will be visible in the future.  So criticism of the chap concerned for believing what he was told is unfair.  
     
  10. Woopert

    The two gentlemen I talked about work in London on very high salaries. As I said they are wincing not whining and not trying to wriggle out.

    They are not muppets, they are claiming everything they are entitled to, but it is still costing them to serve.

    Now stop calling grown men capable of commanding substantial salaries muppets, and if you haven't the wit or wisdom to engage in sensible dialogue on sensible matters bugger off and play with yourself (or does your hand keep falling asleep)
     
  11. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    The problem methinks is that the allowances don't come close to many peoples real outgoings and the logic of TA ranks = civvy street jobs titles doesn't work.  Especially in South England/London.  

    I agree the writer of the letter about his son may not have fully investigated the COLI plan before putting pen to paper - especially as call up allows for all CCJ's, debt collections etc to be deferred to something like 30 days after return from duty (if over 6 months?) (this is from memory of 96 so do you own research here) thus his mortgage provider, VIsa and Autofinance companies can all stick their threatening letters up their collective arrses.  Though the credit agencies will still blacklist him I expect he should be able to then sort things out without losing his house.  Sorting out these problems was very much at the forefront of the Reserve Forces Act '95 (or thereabouts).

    Of course a cinic might say that if you want to get a mortgage after GW2 and are in the reserve forces you may get a difficult time as mortgage companies don't like carrying your debts for you...
     
  12. We too here in the Mystery saw this letter from a clearly highly strung, misinformed mother who was sounding off about allsorts of guff (only half the letter referred to her TA son...the other half rambled on about some other Govt policy). Funnily enough there was a far more well constructed letter in the Daily Telegraph today and I have copied the text to the bottom of this post.

    Although i'm not going to dive into the debate too deeply, I just want to add a few points of clarity:

    1.  COLI ("Compensation in Lieu of Income") has been replaced by the Reservist's Standard Award (RSA) and the Reservist's Hardship Award (RHA), so let's get with the new terminology!

    2.  The financial limits enshrined within RFA 96 are secondary legislation set by Parliament, and the limits have nothing to to with Worthy Down or APC Glasgow. FYI, the applications are processed by APC.

    3.  Woopert - you need to have another look at the banded limits my old chum, as there is no way an NCO can claim £70K under the RSA - see www.sabre.mod.uk (Factsheet 9) for the detailed table, which has proved useful.

    4.  Rupe - You clearly haven't been to the RTMC if you think the J1 team are "clowns". They do not process to applications for RSA/RHA but certainly advise soldiers & RMR on how to go about getting the most cash from the system - a practice most regular RAO's offices would not want to be associated with for fear of becoming the soldier's friend.

    Letter from the Daily Telegraph, Re: Supporting the armed forces, Date: 3 March 2003

    Sir - Our son is a lance corporal in the Royal Marines Reserve. In common with thousands of other reservists, he has been mobilised for possible operations against Iraq. His civilian salary is about £1,700 net per month. He has recently received his first month's pay from the Royal Marines of £1,006.34 net. Not surprisingly, he is confronted by immediate cashflow problems.

    Our son receives the maximum reservists' standard award payable for his rank, meaning that his Marines pay is automatically made up to £22,500 before tax and National Insurance. The levels for the awards were set in 1997 and have not increased by a penny in the intervening six years.

    On December 17, Lewis Moonie, the Under Secretary of State for Defence, gave a written answer to the House of Commons in which he recognised that the levels of awards should be increased to bring them up to date. He also indicated that revised regulations would be introduced early in 2003 to remedy the position.

    Mr Moonie indicated that increases would be made with reference to inflation. But it is surely right and just that any increases to such awards should be fixed by reference to increases in average earnings; otherwise, the utility of such awards will gradually be eroded over time. (Perhaps this is viewed as desirable by the Treasury.) Increases in line with inflation would have raised the level of my son's standard award to more than £25,650; increases in line with earnings would have raised the level to more than £28,000.

    In the event, no revised regulations have been produced. No increases have been made to the level of reservists' standard awards. Since Mr Moonie's written answer, many thousands of reservists have been mobilised. No doubt the Government's failure to act on its own promises will be saving the Treasury substantial sums of money. It is, however, an indication of either the cynicism or incompetence of the Government that this situation was allowed to arise in the first place and still persists.

    Given the lack of provision made for troops now deployed or deploying to the Gulf - including a chronic shortage of chemical toilets, the absence of proper canteen arrangements, the lack of proper accommodation and shortages of basic essentials such as rations and toilet paper - the very least our reservists are entitled to expect is that the Government will not abuse their financial circumstances. If the Government expects the country to support its armed forces, it would do well to start supporting them itself.

    From:
    Capt Derek Parfect (Rtd) and Joan Parfect, Oxton, Wirral
     
  13. However, chaps.  When the balloon goes up - are they going to have anything to come back to????? :-/
     
  14. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    Just looking at the below table aren't I correct in saying that a Senior Capt. can earn more than 37,000?  Therefore making these six year old limits a load of rubbish now?

    Maximum available under RHS:

    1
    The rank of Corporal or below £22,500

    2
    Warrant officer, non-commissioned officer or, in the case of an officer, any rank below the rank of Major  £37,500

    3
    The rank of Major or Lieutenant Colonel £55,500

    4
    The rank of Colonel, Brigadier or a member of specialist category I(4) £70,000

    5
    The rank of Major General and above or a member of specialist category II(5) £153,000
     
  15. Mr Happy,

    I'm not sure whether or not a senior captain does get £37,000, as a major on appointment is on £98 a day which is less than that.

    There is no such thing as a senior captain in the TA. The TA get paid the equivalent pay of a regular in that rank on appointment. Unlike regulars, TA officers do not receive incremental increases and thus "enjoy" the same rate of pay no matter how long they have served in the rank. A twenty year major gets the same pay as a 20 day major.

    I've never heard any of them bitch about it.