HOW BEST CAN I FIGHT MY TRBUNAL (ADVICE NEEDED)

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Jobolox, Apr 28, 2004.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. H

    HELLO,

    I AM CURRENTLY FIGHTING MY CASE FOR A PENSION AGAINST THE VETERANS AGENCY. MY ARGUMENT IS THAT I ENLISTED AS A JUNIOR LEADER AGED 17, AND WAS VIRTUALLY TEETOTAL. I WAS DISCHARGED NINE YEARS LATER AS AN ALCOHOLIC. MY DISCHARGE STATEMENT SAYS; "RETENTION NO LONGER DESIRABLE IN THE INTEREST OF THE SERVICE"
    I AM CONTENDING THAT MY ALCOHOLISM WAS CAUSED BY AND AGRAVATED BY THE STRESS AND THE DRINKING CULTURE I EXPERIENCED DURING MY SERVICE.
    THE WAR PENSIONS AGENCY DO NOT WANT TO LOSE TOO MANY CASES LIKE MINE. THEY HAVE USED EVERY DEVIOUS METHOD THEY CAN THINK OF AGAINST ME.
    THEY HAVE DENIED ME ACCESS TO DOCUMENTS
    THEY HAVE LOST PARTS OF MY RECORDS
    THEY HAVE WITHHELD PSYCHIATRISTS STATEMENTS FROM ME BECAUSE THESE STATEMENTS SUPPORTED MY CASE.

    AT MY FIRST TRIBUNAL THEY CONTENDED THAT I BECAME AN ALCOHOLIC AFTER I LEFT THE ARMY...DESPITE THE FACT THAT MY SERVICE RECORD WAS PEPPERED WITH DRUNKENESS CHARGES AND THE FACT THAT I WAS DISCHARGED THROUGH DRINKING.

    NOW THEY ARE ARGUING THAT I WAS A HEAVY DRINKER BEFORE I JOINED AGED 14 TO 17. I HAVE WRITTEN STATEMENTS TO DISPUTE THIS.
    MY ONLY REPRESENTATIVE WILL BE A MAN FROM BRITISH LEGION WHOM I WILL MEET ON THE MORNING OF THE TRIBUNAL.
    AT MY LAST APPEAL I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK AND I WAS TOLD THAT A DECISION HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE BEFORE THE CASE WAS HEARD..WHY BOTHER INVITING ME TO THE APPEAL THEN?
    THIS IS MY FOURTH ATTEMPT
    I COULD DO WITH ANY ADVICE OR SUPPORT THAT OTHER MEMBERS MAY OFFER...ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE WHO REMEMBERS ME
    MY NAME IS PADDY MAGUIRE
    I JOINED AS A JUNIOR ENTRANT (FUSILIER) IN AAJLR IN 1964
    I TRANSFERRED TO THE ARMY CATERING CORPS
    i WAS ATTACJHED TO
    12TH LIGHT AIR DEFENCE REGT RA
    2ND ROYAL IRISH RANGERS
    BRITISH TROOPS SHARJAH
    7TH PARACHUTE GUNNERS RHA
    115 PROVOST COY RMP
    42 REGT ROYAL ARTILLERY
     
  2. I didn't know that 7 (Para) RHA was a parachute organisation back then...although they were born from the ashes of 33 Independent Light Parachute Regiment in 1962, so I guess it's possible...
     
  3. chimera

    chimera LE Moderator

    What is your case? Did the Army force you to drink?

    Do you not think that perhaps you had something to do with it?
     
  4. jb

    After 9 years service you would get bugg3r all anyway. Are you fighting for invalidity benefit? Is it to be backdated? When did you start your appeal? If you left the army 31 years ago with a checkered history why are you after money now? Don't forget every penny you squeeze out the system and waste on tribual is money away from troops serving today.

    If the army injured you you need compensation but suggesting peer pressure turned you into an alcoholic is probably hiding behind an excuse.

    The best way to fight a tribunal is with a good lawyer - however the result of the first 3 appeals might also be the best advice!
     
  5. I read the above and flew into a rage and had to leave the office for a minute and come back.

    What kind of backslider blames the army for being weak willed enough to become an alcoholic.

    Stop looking for excuses, sort your act out get off the scroungers bandwagon.
     
  6. MDN

    Good post - what I meant but a little less fluffy!

    ofo
     
  7. Yes 7RHA was a member of 16 para brigade in the 1970s. Why did you think I was a liar? We were stationed at Lille Barracks in North camp
    As for the nice ex squaddies who left their their caustic comments perhaps I should have gone into the reasons I turned to drink...have none of you never witnessed bullying in the services.?.oh no? Can any of you deny that there was a culture of heavy drinking. Of cous no one forced me..if you get a taste for drink you don't have to be forcedNone of you bothered to ask if the army offered me any support for my problem and why not.

    I should have known better than to think I could have gotten support. as for the reason I left it so late before appealing is I spent half my life in medical institutions for breakdowns..easy to hudge eh boy. Did I tell you that I served in three different theatres of active service? oh I forgot! Why am I on my fourth appeal? why don't you read my first notice...I was denied documents...the army changed its story...the army lost my recordsstill the army was always fukll of narrow minded bigots
    ours s the same mentality as the buggers I am fighting my case against
    One more thought...a lot of you who left your shit replies may be veterans from the Gulf you know that war that was won by the RAF from half a mile up in the sky..the war where most of the squaddies never saw the enemy and now you are all crying out about Gulf Syndrome...I dont want your ******* advice
     
  8. So are you not happy with the responses then? :cry:
     
  9. jb,

    Obviously only you know the full details but this does smack of sh1te. I've no doubt you have served in some tough places and were encouraged to drink. However, if you have mental health problems caused by the service then good luck - if peer pressure caused you to become alcoholic the don't waste MoD money - which ever cap fits on that one...

    Get legal advice - but the bottom line is there are likely to be lost records etc after so long - repotrs etc have a limited keep time. Medical reports can be confidential and if you have been denied access how do you know what they say.

    If you are genuinely injured by the service I genuinely hope you succeed - if as, and please forgive me if I'm wrong, I suspect, you have seen $$$ in a more PC law happy civvi street than you joined in 1973 (?) then I hope money is not taken from those on the line today.

    I don't know you and if what I say is unfair then don't take it personally - it is people who try and get money from the Government years after the fact for fairly dubious reasons that gets my goat - we the tax payer has to pay for it!
     
  10. same applies to you then don't it - How can you expect any sympathy and advice if you belittle what the servicemen achieved in thier time. no i wasn't in any of the gulf conflicts, no one forced you into the army at 17and stay in for 9 years, and no one forces any of us to drink, it is a choice.

    and no i am not a sprog either
     
  11. Got to agree with ex and ofo on this one.

    For a start, belittling the actions of recently or still serving troops serves no purpose whatsoever. Whilst I will never pretend to have been right in the thick of it in the way that line infantry were during, for example, NI in the 70's, The Falklands or some of the actions in the Gulf this time round, I, along with many if not most others on this board have seen our fair share of nastiness.

    When I joined, the drinking culture in BAOR was still absolutely rife. NAAFI every night, Grolsch until it fell out of your ears, 6PM to 7AM drinking sessions on Fridays and Saturdays, 6PM to 2AM on workdays, regi numbers in the screws mess if you walked the wrong way to the bog etc etc etc etc. I also got into my own fair share of sh1t due to the demon drink, my first stripe was not only on Velcro, it was also on an elastic band connected to the CO's office.

    But guess what? I left, carried on being a p1sshead, got into loads more bother in civvy strabbe than I did in the mob, woke up to the fact that I actually didn't need 12 bottles of wobbly at night to go to sleep, sorted myself out and jumped onto the yellow brick road to superstardom (slight exaggeration, but you get the drift).

    I think what people on here are finding hard to comprehend is the gap between the alleged beginning of your problems and the point at which you have decided to do something about it. Fourth appeal in 31 years? Fcuk me, not even the MOD is that slow!!

    If you are suffering from problems related to your time in, you are going absolutely the wrong way about doing something about it. If it is PTSD that has then since caused a drinking problem, fair shout, but trying to screw the MOD for causing alcoholism due to a "drinking culture" is like trying to sue a brewery for causing hangovers, you are absolutely onto a none starter.

    There isn't even anything to compare it to that has merit, the closest (after that amount of time) that I can think of are the cases where ex servicemen have sued (or, more correctly, applied for disability pensions) because of hearing damage caused by loud bangy things and big whirry things 20 years after their service, but even that one is fair as the MOD knew through experience in many wars gone by that sitting next to an artillery piece or jet turbine engine with no ear defenders (as in the injured persons were never issued with them) tended to knacker the hearing somewhat, therefore giving a direct correlation - unavoidable noise coupled with unavoidable need for injured party to be there equals justified pension.

    Yours seems pretty straight cut. Avoidable substance coupled with no direct need to be in front of the avoidable substance equals no claim.

    Like I said, lifestyle changes caused by genuine cases of PTSD I will support every time, blaming the Army for turning you into a p1sshead just because the "culture" was that of being a p1sshead gets the thumbs down every time.

    PS, if you win, let me know, I can think of about a million other ex service guys that could probably chase this as well, after all, it's Wednesday night and I'm on my 5th Stella, in fact, I have it that bad I even named my internet pseudonym after it and I blame it all on Freeway :wink:

    PPS, if you are not going to meet the RBL guy until the morning of the hearing (and I’m sorry to break the bad news), it’s because they see no merit to your case and are therefore not assigning too much time to it and yes, I can speak with a little tiny bit of authority on that one as I am one of the guys that would have looked at this sort of thing at branch level before passing it to regional.
     
  12. very dubious case no chance imho
    have done loads of benefit appeals.
    maybe if you'd tried ages ago might have had a chance but way to late now not even the accident line would take this one.
     
  13. Blaming the Army for being a drunk is similar to Auntie Stella blaming Mcdonalds for being a porker.

    Jo, noone is discrediting your service or belittling any action you may have taken part in. However you did say you joined the catering corps. when were they in the thick of it?

    If the CSM / RSM / CO pinned you down and wouldn't let you up again until you were addicted to drink then I would sympathise fully. Drinking to escape bullying is also no excuse.

    Yes its easy for me to sit here preaching, but I aslo endured the same drinking culture that Aunty Stella did in the late eighties and early nineties, my only problem was a runny arrse and a shite bladder, do I have a claim against the MOD for allt he mattress's I've knacked and all the people I have upset?

    I wish Badass was around to share his input and views :D
     
  14. Did JB kick off here being critical of other Arrse members or has he just been responding in kind?

    If he had become an undetected alchoholic whilst in the Army today, and been discharged for repeated drunkenness, where would the army and his line management stand with regard to their duty of care?

    (Now tell me that the young tom with no knees left is a looser, because he always ran with weight and in boots, and nobody ever needed to warn him??? )

    There are not enough military mental health professionals to manage the current caseload that we have been able to identify with our limited resources.
    What if all the Army's middle and junior managers were to be trainied in how to recognise how and when the symptoms of mental illness are likley to present themselves?

    Two up and bags of smoke may work in some parts of the Army ( and the Government!), please don't forget that there are also some other parts where it may pay to ask questions before you shoot!
     
  15. OK - Seeking Redress

    The Army conducts its' complaints procedure in accordance with Section 180 of the Army Act 1955 (AA 55).

    Policy and Procedure guidance is contained in AGAI 70, QRs Chapter 5 paras J5.204 - J5.206 and the MS Guide to Soldiers, which doesn't apply here.

    S180 AA 55 gives a statutory right to a person subject to military law to complain if they think themselves wronged in any matter relating to their service.

    There are a number of provisos:

    1. He/she must believe they have been WRONGED.

    2. Matter must relate to his/her service.

    3. Must be personal - no 'tort' claims on behalf of others.

    4. Must be entitled ie have the right to redress sought.

    If redress is not granted to complainant's satisfaction, he/she has a statutory right to require his/her complaint be staffed (through the chain of command) to the Army Board. Officers may petition the Sovereign - in time, this will apply to all ranks.

    Complaints are based on Standard of Proof; the balance of probability, and the burden of proof lies with the complainant.

    'Aha!' I hear you say! 'Jobolox has a case here- the Army aren't helping him!!'

    The system must help complainant with seeking the proof requires, if it exists.

    AGAI 70 contains a great deal about this, in depth. Here is some simple guidance:

    1. Complaint must be submitted within 3 months of original 'wrong'.

    2. Personnel who have since left the Army can submit their complaints direct to their original MCM Div.

    Jobolox: by all means PM me if you feel I can help with this, or explain matters in a little more detail. However, your first check should be to gather any proof you have, and establish comms with your previous MCM Div people.

    Good luck! :D

    The Army take this process very, very seriously indeed. The Army Board sits regularly to deal with complaints. The system in use by the Army can be rightly said to be far better than any comparable system currently in use in civilian life.