Holocaust Memorial in Westminster - to open in 2024

Yokel

LE
It wasn't just the concentration camps though. I was thinking if the 'ordinary Germans' in the Reserve Police battalions who followed the Wehrmacht into Poland and in due course Ukraine and Russia. Their work was shooting men women and children - including babies. They were mainly not Nazis and had the chance of opting out, not just on a day to day basis but some who were unhappy with this work were given the opportunity to be sent back to Germany on the proviso that they became full time policemen. Also, those reservist policemen wrote home and took photos. One battalion had its WAGs come and stay. It is all documented. I think Germans today are probably more honest about their past that they were in the period from late 1945 when amnesia became widespread.

I don't want to divert from the subject of the thread, but I feel quite strongly that if we perpetuate this short hand (Nazis for Germans) we are letting Germans (of that era) off the hook.

That is one of the reasons it is so important to remember. Over the best part of a decade, starting as soon as the Nazis came to power, the progressively isolated the Jews and other minorities, so that they were seen as non German and non human. At the same time they perpetuated a myth of the superior Aryan race being threatened.

Like I said before - a warning from history.
 
What can't it be constructed at the National Memorial Arboretum?
 
I agree, every single person should know about what the Nazi's did, it should be a subject that is hammered into all school children. There's actually a Holocaust Memorial Day on 27th Jan - but most people don't know it exists, and no teacher will probably tell any kids about it, they are too busy telling white boys they are bad and should be effeminate.
Many schools mark Holocaust Memorial Day. School trips visit Auschwitz. The Holocaust is among the suggested topics for GCSE History. Your last line is bolleaux.
 
My objection is: what is wrong with the IWM London's exhibition? It surely was in a bigger space and was very well done and impactive.

There's plenty of space in the gardens for a big memorial without changing the overall look and feel of the entire site and it can be contextualised with the rest of the museum.

I assume the exhibition is still there and to the same quality - I was there last week with the lad (8 ) and there were signs for it but we decided to give it a few years so I've not seen it in a while.
 
I have zero problem with a monument to the martyrdom of the Jews.

If the aim of such a monument is to serve as both a remembrance place and a warning for future generations, then l just wish it was extended to include the non Jewish victims from Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltic States and other places in Central Europe who were persecuted both by Germany and the USSR.

Altogether, Jews included, we are talking about 14 million individuals killed. It is greatly unfair to always forget about them.

This book has brought their plight to light. Sobering but recommended read.


Amazon product
 
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For those who wish to be better informed as to the individuals involved in the make up conduct of the Police Reserve Bns in Poland this book is worth reading, it is not an easy read by any means.

View attachment 592627
“A remarkable—and singularly chilling—glimpse of human behavior. . .This meticulously researched book...represents a major contribution to the literature of the Holocaust."—Newsweek

Christopher R. Browning’s shocking account of how a unit of average middle-aged Germans became the cold-blooded murderers of tens of thousands of Jews—now with a new afterword and additional photographs.


Ordinary Men is the true story of Reserve Police Battalion 101 of the German Order Police, which was responsible for mass shootings as well as round-ups of Jewish people for deportation to Nazi death camps in Poland in 1942. Browning argues that most of the men of RPB 101 were not fanatical Nazis but, rather, ordinary middle-aged, working-class men who committed these atrocities out of a mixture of motives, including the group dynamics of conformity, deference to authority, role adaptation, and the altering of moral norms to justify their actions. Very quickly three groups emerged within the battalion: a core of eager killers, a plurality who carried out their duties reliably but without initiative, and a small minority who evaded participation in the acts of killing without diminishing the murderous efficiency of the battalion whatsoever.

While this book discusses a specific Reserve Unit during WWII, the general argument Browning makes is that most people succumb to the pressures of a group setting and commit actions they would never do of their own volition.

Ordinary Men is a powerful, chilling, and important work with themes and arguments that continue to resonate today.
I would also recommend Goldhagen's book:

51Z1YD0P3XL._AC_UY218_.jpg


He refers to Browning and generally agrees but with some differences of opinion which he explains.

RPB 101 is cited so often because their unit records survived more completely than any other similar unit. Goldhagen lays out the ORBAT of all these units as I recall.

What makes this a mental hill for me to climb is that like many on Arrse I have been posted to Germany, met and got to know and like Germans and had an overwhelmingly positive experience. In addition, in every country the Germans invaded and murdered all the Jews, they had plenty of local volunteers to help. Would they have had such help if Op SEELION had succeeded? How did it go in the Channel Islands vis a vis any Jews?
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
What can't it be constructed at the National Memorial Arboretum?
That is what it is there for surely? Only this week the Prince of Wales opened a well-deserved Police Memorial there. I'm not opposed to the Holocaust Memorial but can't understand why it should be in one of the already crowded Royal Parks. On Hampstead Heath would be more suitable.

As for the Marble Arch Mound, maybe I've missed something but what does it do and what is it for?
 
That is what it is there for surely? Only this week the Prince of Wales opened a well-deserved Police Memorial there. I'm not opposed to the Holocaust Memorial but can't understand why it should be in one of the already crowded Royal Parks. On Hampstead Heath would be more suitable.

As for the Marble Arch Mound, maybe I've missed something but what does it do and what is it for?
If it must be in London, perhaps right outside the German Embassy?
 
As for the Marble Arch Mound, maybe I've missed something but what does it do and what is it for?
OK, I saw the Marble Arch thing briefly and assumed that it was an internet hoax. My bad....
So it's real, someone actually tipped tons of crud at one of the most famous landmarks in one of the world's most famous cities.....
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
Good idea, but quite what makes a somewhat rusty tribute to Sidney Opera House resonant of the Holocaust, I'm not exactly sure.

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Similar to the crap door for coppers at the Arboretum, the symbolism is so far up it's own chuff that the architect should be beaten with a big stick to discourage any further twattery.
 
About time to, and I have no idea why Westminster council rejected this?


You can't have the left trying to whitewash history and I am happy the the government of today have seen fit to open this. Every schoolchild throughout the land should be taught about what the Nazi's did to millions of innocent men, women and children - how they systematically tortured/murdered/enslaved/experimented on people that they thought of as less than animals.

Well done to the politicians that got this through, finally the government are doing something correct. (This an getting Brexit done).
Great post, soiled by you crow barring in Brexit.
 
I would also recommend Goldhagen's book:

View attachment 592645

He refers to Browning and generally agrees but with some differences of opinion which he explains.

RPB 101 is cited so often because their unit records survived more completely than any other similar unit. Goldhagen lays out the ORBAT of all these units as I recall.

What makes this a mental hill for me to climb is that like many on Arrse I have been posted to Germany, met and got to know and like Germans and had an overwhelmingly positive experience. In addition, in every country the Germans invaded and murdered all the Jews, they had plenty of local volunteers to help. Would they have had such help if Op SEELION had succeeded? How did it go in the Channel Islands vis a vis any Jews?
my bold. Several were sent to the death camps. In one episode of "The world at war" (1972). one local women who had as their nanny, a Jewish lass, she had to get her registered with the German occupation authority's , who was subsequently shipped out, and murdered, and as the distraught islander said" Hitler made me into a murderer"
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
What can't it be constructed at the National Memorial Arboretum?

well a couple of pieces of brass with holes in cost 4m there
 
My only beef with this Holocaust™ thing, is the constant focus on 6 million Jews, whilst happily ignoring the fact that we only made up around 50% of the final (mathematical) solution of around 12 million.
Then again, there is no business like Shoah business!
 
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You can't have the left trying to whitewash history and I am happy the the government of today have seen fit to open this.

Well done to the politicians that got this through, finally the government are doing something correct. (This an getting Brexit done).

Whilst I mostly agree with your points and have zero issue with a Holocaust memorial I think you get a bit carried away with your invective.

The memorial was originally rejected by Westminster City Council. This has been under Conservative control ever since it was formed in 1963 (nearly always with a very sizeable majority - it dropped a bit in 1986). I fail to see how this is a case of lefties whitewashing history.

If you think that building a statue in a London park is in some way connected with Brexit I would suggest your brain is disconnected from reality.




As to where it should be located I would suggest sticking it wherever the Chief Rabbi wanted it. Seems reasonable and logical to me.
 
My only beef with this Holocaust™ thing, is the constant focus on 6 million Jews, whilst happily ignoring the fact that we only made up around 50% of the final (mathematical) solution of around 12 million.
Then again, there is no business like Shoah business!
Where does it say it's just for Jews?

This is what it's for:
National Holocaust Memorial and Learning Centre (UKHMLC) in Victoria Tower Gardens to mark the horrors of the Nazi regime against minority groups.

Nothing there says that it's only for the Jews, it's for minority groups whether they be Jews, the Roma gypsies, disabled etc.
 
Where does it say it's just for Jews?

This is what it's for:
National Holocaust Memorial and Learning Centre (UKHMLC) in Victoria Tower Gardens to mark the horrors of the German regime against minority groups.

Nothing there says that it's only for the Jews, it's for minority groups whether they be Jews, the Roma gypsies, disabled etc.
Fixed. NAZI was the political party. Germany was the country that instigated the horror.
you never heard a German soldier say" Were fighting the Conservatives" it was always the Tommy's,, or the Englanders.:(
 

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
As a person of the 'Left' persuasion I will firmly agree with you, in fact 'To Kill a Mockingbird' should be replaced with 'Schindlers List' in school Curriculum. ALL young people should watch this...indeed ALL people full stop should see it and discuss it's implications. That period in history needs to be held up as something to avoid at all costs. Especially as it was not only Jews but Russians, Poles, Gypsies, so called 'Asocial misfits' Recidevists, Gays and anyone Opposing the Govt. Mainly to begin with, control of media and then appealing to the basest instincts of Nationalistic theory...As for Brexit I'll reserve judgement just yet, I voted to Remain but I lost the argument and hope that it will work out in the end as there is absolutely no point in rejoining. Any deal would be far below what we already had so, once out, stay out. We will survive we've done it before over the centuries and will do it again I'm sure...
The other group the Nazi's slaughtered under Aktion T4 right up to 1945 was those who were physically and mentally handicapped, children with congenital illness and psychiatric patients.
 

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