Holland, the hand of Russia?

#1
Turkey-Netherlands row: Erdogan slams Dutch over Srebrenica - BBC News
Not only Nazi's, Erdogan has now raised Srebrenica. "The Netherlands and the Dutch, we know them from the Srebrenica massacre. We know how much their morality, their character is broken from the 8,000 Bosnians that were massacred,":
Ostensibly, the disruption in relations between Holland and Turkey, two NATO member states, one a member of the EU the other, a shunned bride seem like a spat. However, who even suggested to the Turks that fermenting unrest and protests in another country in support of a sitting president was going to go down well; what none EU / NATO States have witnessed these protests?

However, it does play into the hands of Russia by creating more uncertainty in the cohesion of the EU with a potential Nexit leader being elected and also causes disruption in NATO relations. Is the hand of Russia involved in this?
 
#2
Ostensibly, the disruption in relations between Holland and Turkey, two NATO member states, one a member of the EU the other, a shunned bride seem like a spat. However, who even suggested to the Turks that fermenting unrest and protests in another country in support of a sitting president was going to go down well; what none EU / NATO States have witnessed these protests?

However, it does play into the hands of Russia by creating more uncertainty in the cohesion of the EU with a potential Nexit leader being elected and also causes disruption in NATO relations. Is the hand of Russia involved in this?
My money is on Ginger Whinger Sturgeon
 
#3
Erdoğan was in Moscow late last week. Fancy that!


Also the last few days have been a good time for Turkey to bury bad news. The Venice Commission (Council of Europe) just released a report on the proposed constitutional changes in Turkey which is very, very critical of the authoritarian trajectory. On Monday the UN High Commissioner for refugees published a report on alleged human rights abuses, such as torture and extra-judicial killings in SE Turkey. Both reports - potentially very damning of Erdoğan, have barely rated a mention in the media...

...but I agree, Russia must be having a good old laugh at the moment, if not directly helping stoke the fires. But Turkey will wake up and realise it's a Billy No-Mates. Turkey and Russia have had about 10 wars in the last 250 years and Turkey, albeit under the heavy hand of Ottoman despotic dictators, has lost every one of them.
 
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#4
Also the last few days have been a good time for Turkey to bury bad news. The Venice Commission (Council of Europe) just released a report on the proposed constitutional changes in Turkey which is very, very critical of the authoritarian trajectory. On Monday the UN High Commissioner for refugees published a report on alleged human rights abuses, such as torture and extra-judicial killings in SE Turkey. Both reports - potentially very damning of Erdoğan, have barely rated a mention in the media...

...but I agree, Russia must be having a good old laugh at the moment, if not directly helping stoke the fires. But Turkeys will wake up and realise it's a Billy No-Mates. Turkey and Russia have and about 10 wars in the last 250 years and Turkey, albeit under the heavy hand of Ottoman despotic dictators, has lost every one of them.
Thanks for that.
 
#6
If this is not smoke and mirrors from your article, then Ankara are playing a dangerous game now...

'Even Ankara’s current crisis with the Netherlands demonstrates the limits of Turkey’s reliance on Russia. Maintaining that international law is on its side, Ankara had hoped for Moscow’s backing in this crisis. It was disappointed, though, when Putin’s spokesman called on both sides to show restraint.'
 
#7
Ostensibly, the disruption in relations between Holland and Turkey, two NATO member states, one a member of the EU the other, a shunned bride seem like a spat. However, who even suggested to the Turks that fermenting unrest and protests in another country in support of a sitting president was going to go down well; what none EU / NATO States have witnessed these protests?

However, it does play into the hands of Russia by creating more uncertainty in the cohesion of the EU with a potential Nexit leader being elected and also causes disruption in NATO relations. Is the hand of Russia involved in this?
Russia aka Putin is undoubtedly laughing but I doubt his particular hand is in this instance. How the 'hair man' in Holland gets his funding should be looked at but there doesn't seem to be the reports of alleged hacking as there has been in France.

He may have told Putin his plans for rallies but that's not really noteworthy imho. France and Germany have the Erdogan rallies I believe.

Erdogan has wanted to be Sultan for ages and see's Turkey as the new power with influence in the region. How rebels not attending Astana plays out I don't know, but they were his (primary) reason for being there. He's playing a dangerous game with Putin who will undoubtedly drop him when the time is right. What happens then remains to be seen.

Erdogan will get the constitutional changes he wants. He will continue to stoke the fires and the Turkish economy will decline. He will conitinue to upset the EU and NATO which plays into Putin's hand but I don't believe this was Russia's direct involvement. Just a nice backstory
 
#8
Russia aka Putin is undoubtedly laughing but I doubt his particular hand is in this instance. How the 'hair man' in Holland gets his funding should be looked at but there doesn't seem to be the reports of alleged hacking as there has been in France.

He may have told Putin his plans for rallies but that's not really noteworthy imho. France and Germany have the Erdogan rallies I believe.

Erdogan has wanted to be Sultan for ages and see's Turkey as the new power with influence in the region. How rebels not attending Astana plays out I don't know, but they were his (primary) reason for being there. He's playing a dangerous game with Putin who will undoubtedly drop him when the time is right. What happens then remains to be seen.

Erdogan will get the constitutional changes he wants. He will continue to stoke the fires and the Turkish economy will decline. He will conitinue to upset the EU and NATO which plays into Putin's hand but I don't believe this was Russia's direct involvement. Just a nice backstory
What shocked me was the strength of the demonstrations and then the appalling language of Erdogan. He doesn't have a big enough stick to wave. There was a big boy stood behind and encouraging him...

On the other hand the link from @Crash and the calls for an Islamic revolution may mean you are both correct - here he does have influence with the refugees he is holding for the EU and with Turkish nationals resident in Europe.
 
#9
On the other hand the link from @Crash and the calls for an Islamic revolution may mean you are both correct - here he does have influence with the refugees he is holding for the EU and with Turkish nationals resident in Europe.
The problem is that Putin supports the far right (and far left) parties eg money to FN etc. You don't see allegations of hacking on those parties. The far right parties are more likely to have an anti-muslim stance. So Erdogan's stance isn't in line with Putin's other than the disruption in Europe.

I believe he's (Putin) playing along for now giving Erdogan the rope he needs. Ready for the long drop and short stop when the rug is pulled away

We need a new Article in NATO allowing for a country to be removed on consensus. That would dampen some of his rhetoric.
 
#10
The problem is that Putin supports the far right (and far left) parties eg money to FN etc. You don't see allegations of hacking on those parties. The far right parties are more likely to have an anti-muslim stance. So Erdogan's stance isn't in line with Putin's other than the disruption in Europe.

I believe he's (Putin) playing along for now giving Erdogan the rope he needs. Ready for the long drop and short stop when the rug is pulled away

We need a new Article in NATO allowing for a country to be removed on consensus. That would dampen some of his rhetoric.
I would give you a LIKE, but...
 
#15
Russia will be gaming left and right to exert any influence they can to diminish the ability of the EU to project a united front. Financing, back-up, info-wars, cyber... do we have cloggie arrsers?
Lots of talk about Putin destroying the EU, when frankly MS are doing more than enough from within IMO...
 
#16
High profile Twitter accounts hijacked in Turkish-Dutch protest
Now that speaks more of other countries involvement. I'm not aware of any substantial cyber warfare capability held by Turkey, but obviously other countries have devoted a large amount of resources to hacking etc Amongst others the Twitter accounts hijacked included those of the European Parliament and the personal profile of French politician Alain Juppe.
The diplomatic spat between Turkey and the Netherlands spread online on Wednesday when a large number of Twitter accounts, many with no apparent connection to the dispute, were hijacked and replaced with anti-Nazi messages in Turkish.

The attacks, which appeared to be simply a form of political vandalism and used the hashtags #Nazialmanya or #Nazihollanda, took over accounts of high-profile CEOs, publishers, government agencies and also some regular Twitter users.

President Tayyip Erdogan has suspended high-level diplomatic ties with the Netherlands and branded the country's citizens "Nazi remnants" for preventing his ministers at the weekend from addressing rallies of Turks living there.

Hijacked accounts featured tweets with Nazi symbols, a variety of hashtags and the phrase "See you on April 16", an apparent reference to the date of Turkey's planned referendum to grant Erdogan more powers.

The Twitter accounts hijacked included those of the European Parliament and the personal profile of French politician Alain Juppe.

They also included the UK Department of Health and BBC North America, both of which subsequently appear to have recovered, along with the profile of Marcelo Claure, the chief executive of U.S. telecoms operator Sprint Corp, which remains hijacked.

Other accounts included publishing sites for Reuters Japan, Die Welt and Forbes and several non-profit agencies including Amnesty International and UNICEF USA as well as Duke University.

The Twitter profile of BBC North America noted: "Hi everyone - we temporarily lost control of this account, but normal service has resumed".
 
#17
High profile Twitter accounts hijacked in Turkish-Dutch protest
Now that speaks more of other countries involvement. I'm not aware of any substantial cyber warfare capability held by Turkey, but obviously other countries have devoted a large amount of resources to hacking etc Amongst others the Twitter accounts hijacked included those of the European Parliament and the personal profile of French politician Alain Juppe.
Im not sure hacking at this level is classed as Cyber Warfare.

Just to put it in perspective, something like Stuxnet which disables state infrastructure is cyber warfare, if you cannot defend against it, you need to destroy the source before it prevents you from retaliating.

Hacking a tw@tter account is clever, we all have clever hackers and thick "high profile" tw@tter subscribers.
 
#18
Im not sure hacking at this level is classed as Cyber Warfare.
I may be wrong but Cyber now includes everything to do with Information Warfare which includes hacking. Happy to be corrected. Cyber security being change passwords regularly and with a high difficulty
Just to put it in perspective, something like Stuxnet which disables state infrastructure is cyber warfare, if you cannot defend against it, you need to destroy the source before it prevents you from retaliating.
Govt sponsored cyber warfare.
Hacking a tw@tter account is clever, we all have clever hackers and thick "high profile" tw@tter subscribers.
Everybody does. Some countries are better at it than others.

E2A: I know its Wiki....
Cyberwarfare - Wikipedia
Cyberwarfare has been defined as "actions by a nation-state to penetrate another nation's computers or networks for the purposes of causing damage or disruption",[1]:6but other definitions also include non-state actors, such as terrorist groups, companies, political or ideological extremist groups, hacktivists, and transnational criminal organizations.[2][3][4][5][6]

Some governments have made it an integral part of their overall military strategy, with some having invested heavily in cyberwarfare capability.[7][8][9][10] Cyberwarfare is essentially a formalized version of penetration testing in which a government entity has established it as a warfighting capability.[11] This capability uses the same set of penetration testing methodologies but applies them, in the case of United States doctrine, in a strategical way to
  • Prevent cyber attacks against critical infrastructure
  • Reduce national vulnerability to cyber attacks
  • Minimize damage and recovery time from cyber attacks[11]
Offensive operations are also part of these national level strategies for officially declared wars as well as undeclared secretive operations.[12]
Nation state and none nation state, activists etc etc.

The big question is Cui Bono
 
#20
I say, we should show understanding and consideration for the hurt feelings of the nationalist turks and their president. As we are obviously all Nazi's, we should not insult them with our foul presence in their holliday resorts, or "Döner-shops" or vegetable-sales. I hope this way we can deescalate the situation.