Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Holding the Police to Account

Sadly, I don't think that there is any way of getting back to an orderly society.

People used to grow up within a framework of social disciplines - grandparents, parents, neighbours, school, church, police, judicial system, conservative social norms, employment regimes (apprenticeships, workplace hierarchies, deliverables, etc), etc and so on.

Thats why, back in the day, even poor neighbourhoods tended to be largely self-policing or - arguably - far more responsive to policing and the judicial system.

In recent decades, nearly all of that social cohesion and self-discipline has been eliminated. Several generations have grown up without those formative constraints, so now even parenting and grand-parenting is often teaching bad behaviours instead of corrective mentoring.

On top of all that, you now also have huge urban populations of immigrant stock who have never been a part of the British social tradition in the first place, plus the insidious replacement of individual responsibility by the cult of rights and welfare entitlement.

As the resulting demand for policing has ballooned, so politicians have responded by allowing large amounts of illegal or anti-social behaviour to be ignored. This, together with the huge rise in progressive activism and the creation of different policing for different groups, has simply resulted in an inflationary cycle of law breaking and disorder.

I fear we're very much trapped in an epochal cycle of social decline and change, and that there is very little that can be done by way of low-level initiatives that will have a positive outcome in policing and social behaviours.


BFO Stick, Parents to held responsible for their brats actions and take away the seemingly, many advantages of being a single Mum (Obvs exceptions permitted i.e Widows or similar) ,
 
I’ve got my promotion board for PC-PS next month.
Was contemplating being honest when they ask why do you want to be a Sergeant?
Because I’m old to start a new career, too young to retire and you’ve made being a PC s**t. Not sure it’d go down well though so I’ll come up with some jargon filled nonsense instead.
Good luck. I was invited to apply but declined. My most recent skipper, now flying the custody desk said he wished he’d never promoted as the crap far outweighed the benefit.
 
There are informal arrangements, I know one McD that give free coffees on nights to marked cars. My local one will sometimes run coffee through as “loyalty card” it depends on who is working. I have no expectation of a freeby off I go in while working.
 
What's the deal with the 5 - O getting free Maccy Dee's while on duty ?


Can you tell me where this is?


In someone's very fertile imagination I think
‘Free’ extras is part of the ‘standard’ McDonalds discount scheme

On a national basis McDonalds don’t participate in the Blue Light or Defence Discount schemes or give a national discount to police/services etc
But many branches as franchisees do, and put it through the till as the student discount




 
As soon as you mentioning legalizing mind altering substances that fuels vicious criminal activity, you become part of the problem as users will always buy from a cheaper source as they'll be no tax on it so Crims would sell home grown thus continuing the cycle of violence./drug wars/etc ......and hey, why not legalize and tax pedophilia too?

Many, many threads on the the use of drugs so won't get into any debate about it on this thread .

Crims might, but people who other than their drugs use wouldn't be criminals wouldn't. I think it would cut a massive chunk out of their market. I mean, how big is the market for illegal alcohol in this country?

It's also interesting to note your feelings on paedophilia. Do you conflate it as the same in terms of crime as use of drugs? It seems as disingenuous as saying "well why not legalise and tax murder or rape too". Because, obviously, they're entirely different and worse things, and they also have a victim.

Part of the reasoning to legalise cannabis is to reduce the opportunities for child abuse / exploitation that organised drug lines commit.
 

HE117

LE
I was trying to give Int Law 101.

Key points:
- A ratified international agreement/treaty is part of municipal law.
- Some international laws are accepted as universal, irrespective whether a Stae is party to a particular treaty. One of those (Under the Vienna Convention on Treaties) requires states to comply with those tresties they have ratified.
- International law relies on the intentional compliance of all States Party, and not on the whims of a particular State.

Thus, the UK needs to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement.
I think you are probably right with the last statement...

However what you state is all relatively recent convention, and only really applied within a group of (semi) cooperating states..

International laws and agreements have a number of values from maintaining stable and peaceful relations with other countries to providing for efficient enablers of trade and travel.

Where however international law becomes a mechanism for implementing narrower aspirational and cultural goals which neatly bypass local concerns and wishes that things can go wrong. There is clear evidence that much of the issue with the behaviour of the EC & ECJ is as a result of special interest groups, particularly operating within national administrations as well as external pressure groups using the administration to introduce laws and directives which neatly bypass the national democratic structures. The issues then move from the political arena where issues can be challenged, to the legal one where they realistically cannot.

To bring this discussion back to the thread.. I suggest that there are many areas of society where the Police have been dragged into areas where they simply should not be as a result of precisely the same mechanisms. Again going back to the Blair years, the relationship between the Legal and Political was so interfered with as to cause deep and lasting damage..

The whole concept of "Hate Crime" is a fundamental misuse of the legal process IMHO. The state should have no interest in matters of interpersonal relations which fall short of serious physical violence. By involving the Police in matters of domestic dispute, all you do is to remove many of the limits which should be part of mature interpersonal relations. I think society needs to re-learn self control, and not keep depending on third parties to fight their battles.
 
Last edited:

HE117

LE
Crims might, but people who other than their drugs use wouldn't be criminals wouldn't. I think it would cut a massive chunk out of their market. I mean, how big is the market for illegal alcohol in this country?

It's also interesting to note your feelings on paedophilia. Do you conflate it as the same in terms of crime as use of drugs? It seems as disingenuous as saying "well why not legalise and tax murder or rape too". Because, obviously, they're entirely different and worse things, and they also have a victim.

Part of the reasoning to legalise cannabis is to reduce the opportunities for child abuse / exploitation that organised drug lines commit.
History will tell you that laws enacted to placate minority interests are often the ones that become easy prey for the criminal. The whole issue of Prohibition is probably the obvious example..

As I have reflected in a previous post to Filthy, I think we need to desensitise the law making system from special and minority interest campaigns, and in particular those which leave the state able to interfere with more and more aspects of interpersonal relations.

As a reader of Terry Pratchett, I suspect that a slightly more Morporkian approach to lawmaking could be worth considering! The whole issue of what folk choose to do to themselves and their immediate neighbours is not something that seems to be best done from the high turrets of administration. Whilst it may upset the delicate constitutions of the self appointed moral judiciary, a certain degree of fear is probably necessary to curtail the ambitions of the hard of thinking...!

Far too many political careers have been built on the bones of the incapable, mostly with the result that they remain that way..!
 

Bob65

War Hero
I think we need to desensitise the law making system from special and minority interest campaigns, and in particular those which leave the state able to interfere with more and more aspects of interpersonal relations

There are really two separate issues here, which I think is quite a recent phenomenon. On the one hand, you've got the laws that the politicians choose to make. But on the other hand, you've got the laws that the police choose to enforce, and on which sections of society they choose to enforce them on. Which is normal in some countries but it's a novel and unwelcome development for the UK. So in my mind the foremost question is, how do we return the police to the good old days of "without fear or favour"? A fish rots from the head down so that won't be easy to do, even Priti seems to be making no headway against that cosy clique.

A mate of mine is a copper, he says that to make it past Inspector you have to basically give up on nicking villains and switch to working full-time on ticking boxes for diversity outreach and so on. So sacking everyone above Inspector (or demoting them all to Constable) is probably the only way to fix the police.
 
Last edited:
BFO Stick, Parents to held responsible for their brats actions and take away the seemingly, many advantages of being a single Mum (Obvs exceptions permitted i.e Widows or similar) ,
Little Johnny (15) gets nicked for criminal damage and carrying a knife. Immediate action drill is, mainly, for his 51 year old grandmother to phone up and incoherently (leathered) demand his release as “he’s a good boy really and it’s ******* disgusting the way you’ve treated him and...I’m putting it all over Facebook...”.
The clip round the ear days have well and truly passed. I ticked that box a few times last night Too. (Grandmother will have already phoned police 8 times that month to report a variety of things such as being called a slag on Facebook, someone on Facebook marketplace not sending them something they’ve paid for, neighbour telling her to feck off, ex-partner sending her texts, ex partner who she has a non-molestation order out on, but they’ve been seeing each other for the past month...starts shouting at her...)
 
Last edited:

Green_Homer

War Hero
Little Johnny (15) gets nicked for criminal damage and carrying a knife. Immediate action drill is, mainly, for his 51 year old grandmother to phone up and incoherently (leathered) demand his release as “he’s a good boy really and it’s ******* disgusting the way you’ve treated him and...I’m putting it all over Facebook...”.
The clip round the ear days have well and truly passed. I ticked that box a few times last night Too. (Grandmother will have already phoned police 8 times that month to report a variety of things such as being called a slag on Facebook, someone on Facebook marketplace not sending them something they’ve paid for, neighbour telling her to feck off, ex-partner sending her texts, ex partner who she has a non-molestation order out on, but they’ve been seeing each other for the past month...starts shouting at her...)
I mentioned earlier about the 50 something seeking things to get offended about on messages sent publicly between 2 other parties whilst using her dog's Facebook account.

I was being literal... The dog had its own account and she sat all day looking over her own many accounts plus this one simply to find an excuse to 'get one over'.

At one point I think I was the only person on my team that didn't have a complaint registered against them from her. Still not sure if I should be offended or not

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk
 
Crims might, but people who other than their drugs use wouldn't be criminals wouldn't. I think it would cut a massive chunk out of their market. I mean, how big is the market for illegal alcohol in this country?

It's also interesting to note your feelings on paedophilia. Do you conflate it as the same in terms of crime as use of drugs? It seems as disingenuous as saying "well why not legalise and tax murder or rape too". Because, obviously, they're entirely different and worse things, and they also have a victim.

Part of the reasoning to legalise cannabis is to reduce the opportunities for child abuse / exploitation that organised drug lines commit.


Ah, right... It's the Laws fault for making them criminals and nothing to do with their choice to use of illegal substances in the first place?.. Tip top reasoning and yet another example of why druggies always find an excuse for their use of damaging, mind altering substances..

I used the pedo example purely to illustrate something else that is illegal , yet, in the spirit on your reasoning, think of the Tax money we could make if we decriminalized it and openly sold it? ...

Good that you picked up on it and showed the typical paranoia common to users along with the usual bollox justification and complete and utter lack of acceptance of the harmful effects they have on many, if not most users .

I'm not discussing drugs,.... like i said, there been plenty of other threads for junkie scum to make excuses for their use.
 
Last edited:
I mentioned earlier about the 50 something seeking things to get offended about on messages sent publicly between 2 other parties whilst using her dog's Facebook account.

I was being literal... The dog had its own account and she sat all day looking over her own many accounts plus this one simply to find an excuse to 'get one over'.

At one point I think I was the only person on my team that didn't have a complaint registered against them from her. Still not sure if I should be offended or not

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk
Someone gets abused on Facebook... ”have you blocked them?” Majority of replies to that are along the lines of “why should I block them? That means they’ve won...aren’t you going to do them?” As you’ll know, many people will be running a massive number of social media accounts, and will carefully provoke, attempt to entrap someone into an incidence of mal-comms. It’s always “I’ve been sent a screenshot of...” too, when in actual fact they’ve been stalking an ex on Facebook and see some comment that vaguely refers to them. Always seems to be women too.
 
Mothers reporting mal-comms on behalf of their 7 year old daughters who have fallen out with a classmate and have argued by text too are getting very common. “Madison text Annie-lou Lexi saying she’s a fatty...it’s playing havoc with her anxiety...”
last week...”my 11 year old has been chatting on instagram with someone who I think is a bit older and they sent her some porn pictures...”
”Have you stopped her using it / blocked them?”

”No...I’ve let her carry on talking to them as the bastard might reveal who they are...”
 

sittingstress

Old-Salt
Good luck. I was invited to apply but declined. My most recent skipper, now flying the custody desk said he wished he’d never promoted as the crap far outweighed the benefit.
I am a top whack Pc and have done the financials around going for promotion. these numbers are very basic but pay rise will equate to less than £50 a month. Pension (I am that close!) will be about £3500 on the lump sum and about £35 a month.

For those who don't know in my lot promotion for me looks like this, early 2021 apply for promotion. 1 year to 9 months to study for the exam ( I will need that as I am committed with something called a personal life and dont fancy the 5 month, studying every single day including rest days option) April-ish 2022 sit exam. If I pass then apply for a position on the process. If successful wait for the vacancies to be promulgated and apply. If successful promoted (maybe) to acting Ps and spend months putting together and evidencing a portfolio. Present portfolio to Senior Officers in April-ish 2023. If successful then 18 months temp Ps completing the formal competencies required. If successful promoted some time in at the end of 2024. I retire in Feb 2026. During all of that I will be posted to a different nick, necessitating fuel costs and travel time, possibly in a job I don't want nor have been in before. No promotion courses or mentoring just straight into the skippers role as an acting to build the portfolio. In my lot across a wide region we have 2 skippers per shift (maybe) both are acting. In the nearest city there are 4 skippers, all are acting. The stress levels and potential for catastrophic cock ups is huge. One day you are Pc on shift and the next you are running that shift, personnel dramas, serious crimes, volume crimes, gatekeeping, DV oversight, everything.

As you can see for me, well I would be paid as a substantive Ps for approx 14 months therefore the poxy pay and pension increase versus the cost in time, stress, and money does not make it worth it.

As a wise Cpl once said to me "They can ferking RAM it."
 

HE117

LE
There are really two separate issues here, which I think is quite a recent phenomenon. On the one hand, you've got the laws that the politicians choose to make. But on the other hand, you've got the laws that the police choose to enforce, and on which sections of society they choose to enforce them on. Which is normal in some countries but it's a novel and unwelcome development for the UK. So in my mind the foremost question is, how do we return the police to the good old days of "without fear or favour"? A fish rots from the head down so that won't be easy to do, even Priti seems to be making no headway against that cosy clique.

A mate of mine is a copper, he says that to make it past Inspector you have to basically give up on nicking villains and switch to working full-time on ticking boxes for diversity outreach and so on. So sacking everyone above Inspector (or demoting them all to Constable) is probably the only way to fix the police.
Discretion has always been an element of Policing, but it needs to be applied with care and without prejudice, in particular, in cases where actions have been unintentional. Heavy handed policing should not be condoned, and is almost inevitably counter productive and a sign of ignorance and incompetence.

Discretion should never however be made in cases where there is intentional lawbreaking. By all means choose where and when a response is made, this is basic tactics, but there must always be a response sooner or later. The Police must not be allowed to choose to ignore crime and a decision to not to act must never be the final action.
 
.the majority phoning are female and 17-50 years old.
Based on no stats whatsoever...just my perception...It seems to be around 65% are female callers
Supermatelot - could it be that these females read ARRSE and have heard what a super stud muffin you were in the Navy, and these calls you receive of 'tales of woe' are just a ruse in an attempt to get into your Y-Fronts?
Only the other day some bird phoned up chasing up an update on whatever she’d reported...and I asked her to take me off speakerphone as I couldn’t hear her. “Oh hang on...it’s coz I’m in the toilet there’s an echo...” then I heard an involuntary fart as she wiped her arse and then flushed.
I rest my case. You always did pull the classy birds.
 
Last edited:
Discretion has always been an element of Policing, but it needs to be applied with care and without prejudice, in particular, in cases where actions have been unintentional. Heavy handed policing should not be condoned, and is almost inevitably counter productive and a sign of ignorance and incompetence.

Discretion should never however be made in cases where there is intentional lawbreaking. By all means choose where and when a response is made, this is basic tactics, but there must always be a response sooner or later. The Police must not be allowed to choose to ignore crime and a decision to not to act must never be the final action.
About the only area I employ discretion is minor traffic infractions. If you’ve got a light out or were going a bit fast and your attitude is good then I’ll let you go with advice or a driver warning ( not a ticket just a record of the stop) if you are arsey then you’ll get a ticket or a S59 warnjng. Mobile phone users always get a ticket
 
Last edited:
I am a top whack Pc and have done the financials around going for promotion. these numbers are very basic but pay rise will equate to less than £50 a month. Pension (I am that close!) will be about £3500 on the lump sum and about £35 a month.

For those who don't know in my lot promotion for me looks like this, early 2021 apply for promotion. 1 year to 9 months to study for the exam ( I will need that as I am committed with something called a personal life and dont fancy the 5 month, studying every single day including rest days option) April-ish 2022 sit exam. If I pass then apply for a position on the process. If successful wait for the vacancies to be promulgated and apply. If successful promoted (maybe) to acting Ps and spend months putting together and evidencing a portfolio. Present portfolio to Senior Officers in April-ish 2023. If successful then 18 months temp Ps completing the formal competencies required. If successful promoted some time in at the end of 2024. I retire in Feb 2026. During all of that I will be posted to a different nick, necessitating fuel costs and travel time, possibly in a job I don't want nor have been in before. No promotion courses or mentoring just straight into the skippers role as an acting to build the portfolio. In my lot across a wide region we have 2 skippers per shift (maybe) both are acting. In the nearest city there are 4 skippers, all are acting. The stress levels and potential for catastrophic cock ups is huge. One day you are Pc on shift and the next you are running that shift, personnel dramas, serious crimes, volume crimes, gatekeeping, DV oversight, everything.

As you can see for me, well I would be paid as a substantive Ps for approx 14 months therefore the poxy pay and pension increase versus the cost in time, stress, and money does not make it worth it.

As a wise Cpl once said to me "They can ferking RAM it."
So essentially, 'they' have managed to complicate the crap out of a process that used to be straightforward and successfully removed any real incentive to progress. Brilliant.
 
Top