HMS Northumberland and Russian Sub have a coming together

A similar and no doubt true story..... some huge UK/US and invited friends exercise, using a US carrier. At the post exercise wash-up Rear Admiral Elmer J Chickenshit lll stated that the US Navy had kept all the goddam submarines away from HIS carrier, yes Sirree Bob.

Whereupon the UK Lt Cdr boat skipper quietly placed a set of photos on the table, showing his carrier's screws in full technicolour, close-up majesty.
There was an apocyphal tale on a certain website with aviation content that rhymes with "TTune", about an RN sub paying a visit to Norfolk (the US version...). Apparently the sub was due to arrive at X hours, by X+2 hours it had not turned up so everyone was a little concerned. By X+4 hours they were about to send out the search parties when the sub surfaced - within the dockyard right next to the berth it was going to be using. Apparently the captian was invited to a meeting with the USN big wigs, no coffee, bring your hat, closely followed by a meeting with the UK Naval Attache which went "Bad boy, don't do it again, now sit down and tell me how you did it..."

I posted this on a civvy forum where the spams were trying to tell the world how great they were at submarine warfare, and boy did I get dogs abuse! I had some ex-USN something or other laying out charts of the channels into and out of Norfolk showing how there was no way a submarine could get in without surfacing and in any case the <insert colour and keyword of choice> system would have detected them from 20 miles out....

Oh and I can't recall which thread but recently someone mentioned "Blind Mans Bluff", a book on the USN submarine antics against the Russians. I was wondering if there was an RN equivalent, but to be honest they wouldn't tell and if they did no-one would believe them.
 
There was an apocyphal tale on a certain website with aviation content that rhymes with "TTune", about an RN sub paying a visit to Norfolk (the US version...). Apparently the sub was due to arrive at X hours, by X+2 hours it had not turned up so everyone was a little concerned. By X+4 hours they were about to send out the search parties when the sub surfaced - within the dockyard right next to the berth it was going to be using. Apparently the captian was invited to a meeting with the USN big wigs, no coffee, bring your hat, closely followed by a meeting with the UK Naval Attache which went "Bad boy, don't do it again, now sit down and tell me how you did it..."

I posted this on a civvy forum where the spams were trying to tell the world how great they were at submarine warfare, and boy did I get dogs abuse! I had some ex-USN something or other laying out charts of the channels into and out of Norfolk showing how there was no way a submarine could get in without surfacing and in any case the <insert colour and keyword of choice> system would have detected them from 20 miles out....

Oh and I can't recall which thread but recently someone mentioned "Blind Mans Bluff", a book on the USN submarine antics against the Russians. I was wondering if there was an RN equivalent, but to be honest they wouldn't tell and if they did no-one would believe them.
Sounds very apocryphal, to say the least.
 
I was on a cruise the other week, and the line has a veterans’ get-together. There were probably about 30 of us, mostly US. Anyway, there was an old bloke from the USN, span a dit about the USS Bennington.

Apparently he was on it when it was being used for experimental sonar trials, and had some new-fangled kit for its time. It was pitted against a new-fangled nuclear submarine. Which apparently penetrated the escort screen undetected, surfaced to the starboard of the carrier, and decreased speed so that the carrier overtook it. Went round the back of the carrier, increased speed so it took in the port side of the carrier, then submerged and was not seen again.

Old bloke spinning the dit said the implications were scary. They knew it was their sub, but the kit and tactics of the carrier group weren’t worth a light.
 
Having heard similar “dits” (including from mates of mine), I’d only point out that in exercises like that, SM safety over-rides all, which includes the surface ships having to continuously mark their position in some way.

As a result, it’s not very hard for the SM to know where every one is, and plan their approaches.
 
Oh and I can't recall which thread but recently someone mentioned "Blind Mans Bluff", a book on the USN submarine antics against the Russians. I was wondering if there was an RN equivalent, but to be honest they wouldn't tell and if they did no-one would believe them.
That was probably me! Although being sold as 'US Submarines' there is at least one tale in there of a RN Boat.
 
Oh and I can't recall which thread but recently someone mentioned "Blind Mans Bluff", a book on the USN submarine antics against the Russians. I was wondering if there was an RN equivalent, but to be honest they wouldn't tell and if they did no-one would believe them.
That was probably me! Although being sold as 'US Submarines' there is at least one tale in there of a RN Boat's exploits.
I posted this on a civvy forum where the spams were trying to tell the world how great they were at submarine warfare, and boy did I get dogs abuse!
That would be why we got tasking for 'special jibs' that the USN couldn't/wouldn't handle!

The USN boats DID do some amazing stuff - just we were in general better at the important daily stuff.....
 

Yokel

LE
Having heard similar “dits” (including from mates of mine), I’d only point out that in exercises like that, SM safety over-rides all, which includes the surface ships having to continuously mark their position in some way.

As a result, it’s not very hard for the SM to know where every one is, and plan their approaches.

Yeah but.... impossible to detect submarines, surface ships all dead, all Admirals dinosaurs, waffle, waffle, waffle...

Just a thought - after Glasnost and the fall of the Soviet Communist party, many Cold War archives were opened up. As far As I know the authors of books such as Blind Man's Bluff and the makers of programmes such as that 2013 programme about Cold War submarine operations had access to these archives. Has anyone found any accounts or records of a Soviet boat doing an underwater look against a NATO warship?

With Russia trying the decry and battle the West's capabilities, you would have thought that they would have been keen to show off any Cold War pictures taken from a submarine under USS Nimitz or HMS Invincible...
 
A whole 13 pages about a small but I am sure expensive collision and not one of you have mentioned the slightly small very junior officer who is in training, amazing no dastardly comments about her what has the world one too.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
A whole 13 pages about a small but I am sure expensive collision and not one of you have mentioned the slightly small very junior officer who is in training, amazing no dastardly comments about her what has the world one too.

Pay attention, @Ravers has been declaring his intent to give her a disappointing thirty seconds[1] since he first mentioned the programme back in Post #183.

[1] He's so keen he's planning to smash her twice...
 

syrup

LE
There was an apocyphal tale on a certain website with aviation content that rhymes with "TTune", about an RN sub paying a visit to Norfolk (the US version...). Apparently the sub was due to arrive at X hours, by X+2 hours it had not turned up so everyone was a little concerned. By X+4 hours they were about to send out the search parties when the sub surfaced - within the dockyard right next to the berth it was going to be using. Apparently the captian was invited to a meeting with the USN big wigs, no coffee, bring your hat, closely followed by a meeting with the UK Naval Attache which went "Bad boy, don't do it again, now sit down and tell me how you did it..."

I posted this on a civvy forum where the spams were trying to tell the world how great they were at submarine warfare, and boy did I get dogs abuse! I had some ex-USN something or other laying out charts of the channels into and out of Norfolk showing how there was no way a submarine could get in without surfacing and in any case the <insert colour and keyword of choice> system would have detected them from 20 miles out....

Oh and I can't recall which thread but recently someone mentioned "Blind Mans Bluff", a book on the USN submarine antics against the Russians. I was wondering if there was an RN equivalent, but to be honest they wouldn't tell and if they did no-one would believe them.


I've heard a sort of reverse scenario.

There was an American Sub came into Cyprus in about 94 and docked down the quiet end off Limassol.

The plan was to stay submerged off the coast of Cyprus and sneak in a night out of sight of everyone.

That was until an RAF Nimrod flew over head and decided to come back for a look.

Boat has to come up and identify itself and official compliant is made to the RAF about their jet doing figures of eight over it when it's trying to be sneaky
 

philc

LE
A whole 13 pages about a small but I am sure expensive collision and not one of you have mentioned the slightly small very junior officer who is in training, amazing no dastardly comments about her what has the world one too.

Oddly enough clocked a couple of fit birds in the Ops room, as they only stare at washing machine screens all day they might be more susceptible to my rough charms.
 

Yokel

LE
Oddly enough clocked a couple of fit birds in the Ops room, as they only stare at washing machine screens all day they might be more susceptible to my rough charms.

Nice of you to dress up for them!

uncle-albert-ec2626cb-6959-4ea7-bcf8-6d01a92a139-resize-750.jpeg


During the Cold War, we were on patrol in the Arctic and my head got stuck when I was checking the gun for damage. I bent over and my scalp froze to the exposed metal. I had to stay there for three weeks until we returned to warmer waters.
 

Yokel

LE
A similar and no doubt true story..... some huge UK/US and invited friends exercise, using a US carrier. At the post exercise wash-up Rear Admiral Elmer J Chickenshit lll stated that the US Navy had kept all the goddam submarines away from HIS carrier, yes Sirree Bob.

Whereupon the UK Lt Cdr boat skipper quietly placed a set of photos on the table, showing his carrier's screws in full technicolour, close-up majesty.

Sorry to return to this, but I forgot something. I am guessing that you were not transmitting extra noise to simulate a Soviet boat? I wonder if the USN boat acting as the enemy during the exercise in this old documentary - from 38:30 onwards - was pretending to be a Victor or something?



The TACCO in the Viking seems to perform the same role as the Observer in the RN Sea King/Merlin - but even despite having no fixed with ASW aircraft aboard the carrier there is no equivalent in the MH-60Rs. The programme also fails to mention the interaction with surface warships.
 
Last edited:
Sorry to return to this, but I forgot something. I am guessing that you were not transmitting extra noise to simulate a Soviet boat? I wonder if the USN boat acting as the enemy during the exercise in this old documentary - from 38:30 onwards - was pretending to be a Victor or something?



The TACCO in the Viking seems to perform the same role as the Observer in the RN Sea King/Merlin - but even despite having no fixed with ASW aircraft aboard the carrier there is no equivalent in the MH-60Rs. The programme also fails to mention the interaction with surface warships.
I have no idea what current policy is, but 'in my day' the concept of transmitting was totally unthinkable, except for the single ping, which would be to define the range of the contact immediately before pressing the FIRE button.

Any noise transmitted or emanated from the boat is a give-away, hence in Patrol Quiet State, or Ultra High Quiet State there were numerous 'normal' evolutions that could not be carried out - flushing the WCs for one, running up and down the internal ladders etc

Ane we WERE very good at it..... ;)
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I have no idea what current policy is, but 'in my day' the concept of transmitting was totally unthinkable, except for the single ping, which would be to define the range of the contact immediately before pressing the FIRE button.

"One ping only, Vasily..."
 

Yokel

LE
I have no idea what current policy is, but 'in my day' the concept of transmitting was totally unthinkable, except for the single ping, which would be to define the range of the contact immediately before pressing the FIRE button.

Any noise transmitted or emanated from the boat is a give-away, hence in Patrol Quiet State, or Ultra High Quiet State there were numerous 'normal' evolutions that could not be carried out - flushing the WCs for one, running up and down the internal ladders etc

Ane we WERE very good at it..... ;)

By transmitting I am talking about the noise from propulsion and other systems. I first heard of NATO boats simulating the noise levels of submarines during this talk by the late Professor Eric Grove. At 50:15 or so he mentions the role of the ASW helicopter with dipping sonar and then goes on to describe a NATO ASW exercise involving one of our carriers.

 
Last edited:
Although 'noise' is probably the worst and most common effect of a submarine, there are many more. While it might be possible to 'mimic' an opposing submarine or even a large sea creature you are still generating a water disturbance - 5000 tons of steel/titanium has this effect! Have you seen the wee spikes on the front of Russian boats? It's been suggested that this is a wake detection system. They can also detect the ions left in the sea from the reactor cooling water. And there's more........

All this is open source or works in progress - Google is your tutor.
 

QRK2

LE
Although 'noise' is probably the worst and most common effect of a submarine, there are many more. While it might be possible to 'mimic' an opposing submarine or even a large sea creature you are still generating a water disturbance - 5000 tons of steel/titanium has this effect! Have you seen the wee spikes on the front of Russian boats? It's been suggested that this is a wake detection system. They can also detect the ions left in the sea from the reactor cooling water. And there's more........

All this is open source or works in progress - Google is your tutor.


1642273545368.png
 

Latest Threads

Top