HMS Cornwall in Anti-piracy op

#2
May I ask about convoys? Why not to form caravans of ships guarded by a military vessel?

Is ot too expensive? Or maybe impractical?

How to sail in the ice covered waters? Use an ice-breaker.
 
#3
It is my understanding that the area at risk is so huge, the number of merchantmen and the disparity of their routes and destinations and the proportionaly small number of warships preclude the _economic_ use of convoys.

Ie if it were simply a matter of escorting shipping into the Red Sea it would be easier but those darn Somali's refuse to co-operate. Asking the various merchies to form up in various ports and wait for a warship would drive the cost of doing buisness up more than the cost of paying the odd ransom/PMC to provide security.

As compared to WW I and II where the losses where staggering and the merchies were could be organised to go from a few discrete ports to another fixed set. So far the Somalis are still inflicting tiny losses comapared to income and there's been very little loss of life.
 
#4
I soppose that if each day at 8am a warship would wait for merchant ships in the known place in the Red sea and escort them to the known place in the Indian ocean then where would be many shipowners who agree to pay a reasonable sum in this case.
 
#5
I soppose that if each day at 8am a warship would wait for merchant ships in the known place in the Red sea and escort them to the known place in the Indian ocean then where would be many shipowners who agree to pay a reasonable sum in this case.
they'd just hijack them at 6am
 
#6
they'd just hijack them at 6am
The meating point could be deep inside the Red sea in the place where Somalian pirates would not come unspotted.
 
#8
KGB your talking rubbish i'm afraid. The cost of waiting for a convoy is prohibitive for the merchantmen and in some cases waiting around for months isn't viable due to the nature of the cargo. Cheaper just to pay to insure the vessels.
 
#9
I don't say about months. Convoys could be formed daily. Insurers... Yes, in this case they would lose huge money.

Edited to add. Of course, it is only a proposition, a matter for discussion.
 
#10
I don't say about months. Convoys could be formed daily. Insurers... Yes, in this case they would lose huge money.

Edited to add. Of course, it is only a proposition, a matter for discussion.
ok so assuming you form a daily convoy, how far would they escort them before turning back? not far and its pointless they'd attack 500 miles further away, escort all the way and you'd need trillions of pounds worth of ships doing nothing but this
 
#11
ok so assuming you form a daily convoy, how far would they escort them before turning back? not far and its pointless they'd attack 500 miles further away, escort all the way and you'd need trillions of pounds worth of ships doing nothing but this
Well, the turning point could be somewhere beyond the Maldives, where the warship would meat a group of ships ready to sail toward the Red sea.

Let's count. How many marships would be needed? I'm not an expert. Maybe our friend would help us. Anyway they would be good drills.
 
#12
I don't think they could cover that sort of distance in a day
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
Our Russian friend isn't talking too much nonsense this time. There is a PMC setting up to provide specific convoy work for ships, with insurance discounts if you use them.

All the arguements about merchantmen not waiting around and how far you escort them out is pretty silly too. RN expereince in WW1 and WW2 was that convoys worked and didn't delay shipping too much. But shipowners can't be bothered because the benefit vs risk isn't worth it to them yet.
 
#14
Really? I'm willing to be educated, the current line we've been fed in YO world is just that - cheaper to just pay insurance. Plus, time = money and even a days delay is too much especially when the loss of life isn't that much.

But like I say, i'm willing to be told otherwise?
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
As I said, the risk/benefit doen't stack up for shippers yet - the insurers pay out eventually. But if the answer is that we let large corporations take risks with the lives of their employees then why do we have H&S legislation. My point about convoys is that they work, can be enforced and,as I'm sure Dartmouth still teaches, convoys win if they get through and win if they're attacked.
 
#16
Convoys would work, they worked in WW2 didnt they? but as stated above how much would it cost? probably prohibitively high to be sustainable! and how long would it have to go on for to make the nasty pirates go away?

I dont see why the PMC's dont just rig up a bunch of small fast merchantmen as Q-ships ...grotty old merchantmen, couple of rigged up ISO containers on the foredeck containing Oerlikons or something similar, a camouflaged gun or two at the rear.... 'fishing dhow' comes close...observe it like a hawk....'fishing dhow' drops off a couple of skiffs with armed men in them, they aint exactly coming across with invites for the captains table at 9 bells with best bib and tucker now are they?

Drop the sides of the ISO containers and sink the skiffs.... fire a few across the bows of the 'fishing dhow' to keep the nasty mens heads down... Launch rigid raiders armed to the teeth with hairy arsed mercs.... capture 'fishing dhow' by shooting every fecker with a weapon ...dont go all soft by attempting to arrest them, just shoot them..... Rescue any original crew (if they survive...but hey its a tough life the old fishing game!) give them back their boat stick the remaining pirates in a couple of dinghys and cast them adrift, or lock 'em up in the hold of your 'grotty mechantman' until a suitable time to offload them.... If there are no original crew just sink the 'fishing dhow'


or is that too James Bond?
 
#17
Group transits/convoys are already conducted but they are normally restricted to the Internationally Recommended Transit Corridor (IRTC) in the Gulf of Oman and only occur a few times per month. The rest of the affected area, all of which has to be policed by the international maritime force, is a million square miles in size and merchant ships do not simply transit it from A to B. They also go from A to C, from A to D, from C to B and so on.

As has already been emphasised, time is money to ship owners and they do not want their vessels hanging around waiting for a convoy to assemble or transiting 1,000 nautical miles at the speed of the slowest ship, possibly as little as 10 kts; that would mean a passage of 100 hours on only one of the routes through the area whereas faster ships can do it in 35 or even 30 hours. Ship owners would rather pay the higher insurance premiums and take the risk. The odds of getting through are still pretty good when you take into account the thousands of vessels plying the Indian Ocean each day.
 
#18
how about they let them do it like they did in the good old days, allow shipping firms to purchase weapons at the most liberal side a ship armed with half a dozen GPMGs or at the most basic and legal in many countries an armoury containing some semiatuomatic rifles and shotguns the company trains its men how to use them. i think it would definatly help deter piracy without needing a huge haval presance or a pmc and you can keep em stored and locked up when in port
 
#19
how about they let them do it like they did in the good old days, allow shipping firms to purchase weapons at the most liberal side a ship armed with half a dozen GPMGs or at the most basic and legal in many countries an armoury containing some semiatuomatic rifles and shotguns the company trains its men how to use them. i think it would definatly help deter piracy without needing a huge haval presance or a pmc and you can keep em stored and locked up when in port
I think they have tried that and it doesnt work, you cant expect civilian seamen with the barest minimum of training and nil experience to take up arms against armed criminals whom have experience determination and ruthlessness under their belts. Plus in most cases they are armed with RPG's as well as light weapons. I guess an RPG can do a lot of damage to a small vessel. Nope Q-ships is the answer methinks, and apparently some of the security consultants seem to think so too!
 
#20
OK so assuming you form a daily convoy, how far would they escort them before turning back? Not far and its pointless they'd attack 500 miles further away, escort all the way and you'd need trillions of pounds worth of ships doing nothing but this.
I don't think you'd need trillions of pounds worth of ships, possibly not even hundreds of billions. We only seem to be using all singing all dancing frigates and destroyers for things like this or the West Indies Guard Ship duties is because we don't really have anything else to use. For a bunch of pirates in speedboats toting mostly AK-47s and RPG-7s all you really need is something that's heavy enough to outgun and overhaul them and possibly carry a helicopter, patrol boats along with the occasional corvette-size vessel to carry the air support would be sufficient I would have thought.
 

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