HM Mafia & Data Accessibility

Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by fingers_1661, Apr 12, 2010.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. HM Mafia (aka HMRC/the taxman) have persistantly refused to answer a question re the date on which they based a decision for tax purposes. I will shortly issue SAR/FOI requests in order to force their hand. Can anyone with experience with DPA/FOI offer any pointers that may assist in this field?

    Edit: see file

    Attached Files:

  2. Try here for starters -

    I've never done a DPA request, and my FOI requets have been largely for historical matters, so my personal experience isn't of much use.

  3. Thanks C_C, having worked for HMG continuously for 33 years I expect better service than received to date.
  4. You've got a big problem - your drop-dead date for the Upper Tribunal appears to be 30th Apr. Even if HMRC stuck to the legal time limits for FOI requests (which are likely to be denied on s34(2) and s40(1) grounds, anyway), the reply will reach you well after you need it (20 days).

    DPA - you've got a better chance of getting the data but there is a (often breached) 40 day limit. And I would suspect that a s31 "no right of s7 subject access" would be tried in the first instance too.
  5. Idrach, the date isn't a problem, I'm more concerned at their persistant refusal to answer the question & the ease by which the system protects wrongdoing/incompetance. In short my case goes like this:

    a) On completion of 22 I moved to SE Asia (Nov 2000),

    b) I was a regular visitor to UK until May 2004,

    c) I was recruited by another UK Govt dept <i'm not going any further that that, save to say my duties constitute 'service to the crown' for tax purposes as grudgingly admitted by HMRC in 2008>in Mar 04 to work in my current abode.

    d) I was a military reservist thoughout & had not been outside UK long enough to qualify for 'non-residency' when recruited @para c).

    e) If they're taxing my pension & I'm working for HMG why can't I claim anything from HMRC & why can't they reveal the exact date on which they based their decision?
  6. Okay - well, lets have a look.

    Don't think this is relevant on any point of law - either for your actual case or for your information seeking.

    However, the previous judgement (12 Jan 09) said that you were not considered 'ordinarily resident in the UK'. A British Citizen living abroad, employed there and from there by Her Maj, isn't necessarily subject to the same taxation and allowances rules as notionally UK-based FCO / HMF personnel. You might want to ask Fair Maid of Perth - although it may be different for her as she lives in Paris, so there might be some intra-EU thingy.

    As you have found out, being resident for tax purposes is not the same as being resident for allowances - hence the current crack-down on certain benefits claimants taking long holidays abroad and still claiming as if they were in the UK. And the rules vary for different benefits. I think the point of law here is that your military reserve commitment didn't count as Crown Service (as you weren't called up) and that you don't qualify under s30(2)(a):

    Judging by what you have said and the refusal to appeal notice, the Tribunal ruling was that you were ordinarily resident in your current abode and were employed there (as an LEC but a British Citizen).

    Because they make the rules :( - depending on where you live and the mutual tax recognition, you may be able to have your UK tax as an allowance against local tax. It is worse for Yanks - they are liable for US tax everywhere and regardless.

    I'm not sure exactly what you are asking in the bold - the date on which they made the decision or a date in your timeline that they made a decision about - it may just be the post-prandial stupor kicking in and time for me to make another cup of tea. Regardless, they should be able to reveal the date (unless they have lost some of the paperwork - you've been at this for what, 5 years now? Plenty of time for something to go left) - whether they want to or legally are required to is a different question.

    If you just want the information, I would suggest DPA s7 Data Subject Access, rather than FOI because I suspect the information you seek (unless it is merely the date on which the initial HMRC decision was made and even then it may be covered) is 'exempt information' under the 2 FOI sub-sections I listed in the previous reply.

    Even under DPA, unless I am understanding what you are after badly wrong (this is by no means impossible), they may try the "Crime and Taxation" exemption (I'd note that although you are seeking child benefit rather than tax, housing benefit and council tax benefit are explicitly covered in the relevant section so the exemption may be justified). Also, you'll need to be aware that under the Durant ruling, you only have a right of access to data that is "biographical" of you - just because you are mentioned on an email or other relevant record doesn't mean they need to provide this to you.
  7. Idrach, Thanks for taking the time to prepare such a detailed answer. HMRC initially opted for "not working for the crown"<in my current post> & when this backfired (a full 2 years after i'd initiated these procedings) they resorted to "not ordinarily resident" <when recruited into my current post> but they daren't reveal what date on which they based their findings because the date will fall short of the 4 clear tax years stipulated on their website (at the time) to qualify for non residency. I was recruited in March 04 & formally accepted (after vetting etc) in Jul 04 although I physically started a week after submitting my CV.

    I believe i'm unique in being the only crown servant in this ridiculous position.
  8. That should be trivially recoverable - in a sane world (i.e. one as far away from HMRC as possible) it would have been part of the basic information they should have given you as part of the initial determination. It should be subject to a DPA s7 request (as it is biographical).

    Having said that, I think that the difference in definitions between "non-resident for tax purposes" and "not ordinarily resident in the UK" for child benefit doom your case. I'll agree with you that it is unfair but ...
  9. If I applied to HMRC under FOI (general question re non residency cira 2000-4) & DPA (to establish exact date I became non resident in their eyes) could I go back to the upper tribunal like Neville Chamberlain or am I wasting my time? (see the blogg to see how far i've already been!)

    I've asked HMRC to clarify the latter on some 20+ occasions since Sep 08.
  10. See PM - but, yes, I think you would be wasting your time. However, firstly, putting in the requests is not going to waste much time and you may be surprised by the results. Also, it is your time to waste, not mine so your call ...
  11. See reply to PM. This is the sort of story a Journalist could make use of, given the amount of money syphoned around the world each week by those that are seemingly more entitled than a Crown Servant of 33 years standing & a fully paid up member of the "National Insurance" club.

    Rant over. Thanks for your input.

    (Requests have been submitted to the relevant agencies)