History from Home

dockers

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
Several Military Historians are collaborating to bring free presentations to the public, via Eventbrite. The list so far:

25 March1930Peter Caddick-AdamsBattle of the Bulge
1 April1930Jesse AlexanderBattle of Berlin
8 April1930Kate JamiesonBattle of Trafalgar
22 April1930Andrew LockBattle of the Somme
29 April1930Richard Van EmdenThe missing of WW1
6 May1930Alex OwenBattle of Waterloo
13 May1930James HollandNormandy 1944
27 May1930Ben MayneBattle of Bosworth

Link
 

OneTenner

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Excellent news, thanks for letting us know!

All I need to do is stay alive to see them...



9-1/2 M before you ask
 
Just been on the website - seems they have a military history seminar on 'Sex and Drink and Rock and Roll' in May.....
 

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
I only found out last week that the British Army played a vital role in the Battle of the Bulge but their presence was suppressed to give our Allies the P.R kudos . funny ole world init ?
 

4(T)

LE
I only found out last week that the British Army played a vital role in the Battle of the Bulge but their presence was suppressed to give our Allies the P.R kudos . funny ole world init ?
It was probably the most politically-contentious event in Anglo-US relations during the war. Monty (under US command by this stage) executed a large part of the Allied response, and did so very efficiently. Unfortunately he then didn't hold back on either criticising the US (both for creating the strategic conditions for the Germans to exploit, and for the performance of some of their troops), or claiming credit for turning the tide of battle. It was very much the latest chapter in the whole Monty vs. US friction, and it absolutely incensed both the US command and their press. Its been a bit of a historical media war ever since.
 
It was probably the most politically-contentious event in Anglo-US relations during the war. Monty (under US command by this stage) executed a large part of the Allied response, and did so very efficiently. Unfortunately he then didn't hold back on either criticising the US (both for creating the strategic conditions for the Germans to exploit, and for the performance of some of their troops), or claiming credit for turning the tide of battle. It was very much the latest chapter in the whole Monty vs. US friction, and it absolutely incensed both the US command and their press. Its been a bit of a historical media war ever since.
tbh I don't recall reading/hearing in the media at all about Brit participation
 
Several Military Historians are collaborating to bring free presentations to the public, via Eventbrite. The list so far:

25 March1930Peter Caddick-AdamsBattle of the Bulge
1 April1930Jesse AlexanderBattle of Berlin
8 April1930Kate JamiesonBattle of Trafalgar
22 April1930Andrew LockBattle of the Somme
29 April1930Richard Van EmdenThe missing of WW1
6 May1930Alex OwenBattle of Waterloo
13 May1930James HollandNormandy 1944
27 May1930Ben MayneBattle of Bosworth

Link
**spoiler**

The home team wins all these games
 

4(T)

LE
tbh I don't recall reading/hearing in the media at all about Brit participation
The US narrative has very much prevailed.

The wiki entry under "Montgomery's actions" heading gives a decent overview. The last four lines pretty much sum up the schism in opinion about the battle.

OP, sorry for this thread drift.
 

OneTenner

War Hero
Book Reviewer
It was probably the most politically-contentious event in Anglo-US relations during the war. Monty (under US command by this stage) executed a large part of the Allied response, and did so very efficiently. Unfortunately he then didn't hold back on either criticising the US (both for creating the strategic conditions for the Germans to exploit, and for the performance of some of their troops), or claiming credit for turning the tide of battle. It was very much the latest chapter in the whole Monty vs. US friction, and it absolutely incensed both the US command and their press. Its been a bit of a historical media war ever since.
Monty was interviewed after the event by a journo, the Germans got hold of the text of the interview and changed it to make it more scathing of the Americans than it originally was, broadcast if from occupied territory as a faux allied broadcast.
It worked well, up until recently, very little was said publicly about the British contribution to the battle - it wasn't just Monty, significant British forces were involved to protect the river crossings on the Meuse at Givet, Dinant and Namur, Montgomery ordered those few (US) units available to hold the bridges on 19 December. This led to a hastily assembled force including rear-echelon troops, military police and Army Air Force personnel. The British 29th Armoured Brigade of British 11th Armoured Division, which had turned in its tanks for re-equipping, was told to take back their tanks and head to the area. British 30 Corps was significantly reinforced for this effort. Units of the corps which fought in the Ardennes were the 51st (Highland) and 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Divisions, the British 6th Airborne Division, the 29th and 33rd Armoured Brigades, and the 34th Tank Brigade.
c.f. https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/t...obably-never-knew.94839/page-183#post-9708290 onwards
 
Monty was interviewed after the event by a journo, the Germans got hold of the text of the interview and changed it to make it more scathing of the Americans than it originally was, broadcast if from occupied territory as a faux allied broadcast.
It worked well, up until recently, very little was said publicly about the British contribution to the battle - it wasn't just Monty, significant British forces were involved to protect the river crossings on the Meuse at Givet, Dinant and Namur, Montgomery ordered those few (US) units available to hold the bridges on 19 December. This led to a hastily assembled force including rear-echelon troops, military police and Army Air Force personnel. The British 29th Armoured Brigade of British 11th Armoured Division, which had turned in its tanks for re-equipping, was told to take back their tanks and head to the area. British 30 Corps was significantly reinforced for this effort. Units of the corps which fought in the Ardennes were the 51st (Highland) and 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Divisions, the British 6th Airborne Division, the 29th and 33rd Armoured Brigades, and the 34th Tank Brigade.
c.f. https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/t...obably-never-knew.94839/page-183#post-9708290 onwards
For once German Propaganda worked to attack Montys reputation. Granted he knew how to hit every button on IKEs temper
 
I only found out last week that the British Army played a vital role in the Battle of the Bulge but their presence was suppressed to give our Allies the P.R kudos . funny ole world init ?
Suppressed? thats why Monty gave a press conference about his being in command of the northern shoulder?

Winston Churchill on the Bulge-

"Care must be taken in telling our proud tale not to claim for the British Army an undue share what is undoubtedly the greatest American battle of the war, and will, I believe, be regarded as an ever famous American victory."

''I have seen it suggested that the terrific battle which has been proceeding since 16th December on the American front is an Anglo-American battle. In fact, however, the United States troops have done almost all the fighting and have suffered almost all the losses. They have suffered losses almost equal to those on both sides in the battle of Gettysburg. Only one British Army Corps has been engaged in this action. All the rest of the 30 or more divisions, which have been fighting continuously for the last month are United States troops. The Americans have engaged 30 or 40 men for every one we have engaged, and they have lost 60 to 80 men for every one of ours. That is the point I wish to make.
January 8th, 1945 to Parliament
 
Suppressed? thats why Monty gave a press conference about his being in command of the northern shoulder?

Winston Churchill on the Bulge-

"Care must be taken in telling our proud tale not to claim for the British Army an undue share what is undoubtedly the greatest American battle of the war, and will, I believe, be regarded as an ever famous American victory."

''I have seen it suggested that the terrific battle which has been proceeding since 16th December on the American front is an Anglo-American battle. In fact, however, the United States troops have done almost all the fighting and have suffered almost all the losses. They have suffered losses almost equal to those on both sides in the battle of Gettysburg. Only one British Army Corps has been engaged in this action. All the rest of the 30 or more divisions, which have been fighting continuously for the last month are United States troops. The Americans have engaged 30 or 40 men for every one we have engaged, and they have lost 60 to 80 men for every one of ours. That is the point I wish to make.

January 8th, 1945 to Parliament
At least battleground (1949)got it right with real vets. Alas the battle of the bulge suffered in too many ways to mention
 

OneTenner

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Suppressed? thats why Monty gave a press conference about his being in command of the northern shoulder?

Winston Churchill on the Bulge-

"Care must be taken in telling our proud tale not to claim for the British Army an undue share what is undoubtedly the greatest American battle of the war, and will, I believe, be regarded as an ever famous American victory."

''I have seen it suggested that the terrific battle which has been proceeding since 16th December on the American front is an Anglo-American battle. In fact, however, the United States troops have done almost all the fighting and have suffered almost all the losses. They have suffered losses almost equal to those on both sides in the battle of Gettysburg. Only one British Army Corps has been engaged in this action. All the rest of the 30 or more divisions, which have been fighting continuously for the last month are United States troops. The Americans have engaged 30 or 40 men for every one we have engaged, and they have lost 60 to 80 men for every one of ours. That is the point I wish to make.

January 8th, 1945 to Parliament
Churchills speech was heavily politicised to placate the American leaders and public, as with all politicians, reality doesn't always translate into the spoken word.
 

OneTenner

War Hero
Book Reviewer
Several Military Historians are collaborating to bring free presentations to the public, via Eventbrite. The list so far:

25 March1930Peter Caddick-AdamsBattle of the Bulge
1 April1930Jesse AlexanderBattle of Berlin
8 April1930Kate JamiesonBattle of Trafalgar
22 April1930Andrew LockBattle of the Somme
29 April1930Richard Van EmdenThe missing of WW1
6 May1930Alex OwenBattle of Waterloo
13 May1930James HollandNormandy 1944
27 May1930Ben MayneBattle of Bosworth

Link
Just finished watching tonights presentation, two hours went by like twenty minutes, looking forward to the next one.
 
Churchills speech was heavily politicised to placate the American leaders and public, as with all politicians, reality doesn't always translate into the spoken word.
So the reality wasnt that these figures are correct?

UK
200 KIA
969 WIA
239 MIA

USA
19,000 KIA
47,500 WIA
23,000 MIA/POW

UK -Divisional units only
51st, 53rd infantry divisions
6th Airbourne Division

USA- Divisional units only
2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th 9th, 10th, 11th Armored divisions
17th, 82nd, 101st Airborne Divisions
1st,2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th, 26th, 28th, 35th 75th 76th, 78th, 80th, 83rd, 84th, 87th, 90th, 94th, 99th, 106th Infantry divisions
 

OneTenner

War Hero
Book Reviewer
So the reality wasnt that these figures are correct?

UK
200 KIA
969 WIA
239 MIA

USA
19,000 KIA
47,500 WIA
23,000 MIA/POW

UK -Divisional units only
51st, 53rd infantry divisions
6th Airbourne Division

USA- Divisional units only
2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th 9th, 10th, 11th Armored divisions
17th, 82nd, 101st Airborne Divisions
1st,2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th, 26th, 28th, 35th 75th 76th, 78th, 80th, 83rd, 84th, 87th, 90th, 94th, 99th, 106th Infantry divisions
We've had a similar exchange of figures before, as you well know, approximately a third of the US losses / wounded were due to being poorly equipped for the terrain & weather conditions, the figures are broadly correct but do not reflect the effectiveness of actions. Bradley was a poor commander and men placed under his orders knew it, Pattons Army were well prepared with good intel (that Bradley chose to ignore) and with 30 corps closed the bulge, saving Bradley and the remains of his Army, just because US 1st army & 30 corps didn't suffer the bulk of the casualties doesn't mean they were not in the thick of it. 1st Army were mainly up against infantry with little or no armour support as what armour the Germans had were out of fuel by that stage. 30 Corps were also tasked with a defensive line along the Meuse, with 53 Welsh thrown into the bulge with an AT capability.
ETA - a lot of the US divisions you mention were under strength and sent to the Ardennes to rest and incorporate fresh replacements, it was seen as a low-risk area (Despite Rommel pushing armour through there in 1940, in some cases on the exact same routes) and did not have many battle-seasoned troops on the defensive lines, many of the losses were due to inexperience and / or lack of clear leadership, the attacking forces were not by and large 'crack troops' many of the German 'paratroopers' were in fact Luftwaffe airfield troops pressed into action in para smocks.... the SS panzer divisions had not operated under their commander as an Army previously and didn't have the proper infantry support (or fuel), loggies were using horses - for everything, food, fuel, ammunition, and still they punched a hole through.
 
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I only found out last week that the British Army played a vital role in the Battle of the Bulge but their presence was suppressed to give our Allies the P.R kudos . funny ole world init ?
That’s strange, I watched a documentary this morning about the US battle to take the town and harbour of Brest.
The program was let down by the reenacted combat scenes, but the nub was, who knew there was a Troop of Churchill Vll Crocodiles from 79 Armoured attached to the Yanks.
The Sqn really impressed the Yanks so much, the Troop leader was awarded a Silver Star.
The let down, M5 Stuart’s pulling a trailer pretending to be Churchill’s ! Oh and German troops using Lee Enfield instead of Mausers.
 

dockers

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
Bump!

Tonight’s talk is the Battle of Berlin, given by Jesse Alexander. Hosted on Zoom tonight as it offers a larger capacity than last week’s host.

Also on today is a live streamed ‘We have ways’ by Al Murray and James Holland at 1030. Hosted on Crowdcast.
 

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