Historical international car transfer - back tax issue!

ugly

LE
Moderator
#21
She is my favourite sibling, so I am really loathe for this to cause any issues between us!
Fair one, just send her a letter with a receipt for the sale dated the day you left Italy with it. Then its up to the Italians to chase over here. I suspect they wont, I suspect the system for reporting cars scrapped then wasn't as good as now and even so not having a V5 bottom slip (the only legal UK way of verifying its been scrapped) will mean the Italians will draw a blank. Be Honest with them (not totally honest) just state it was sold/lent/given to you for the journey home and scrapped after arrival in the UK!
 
#22
Fair one, just send her a letter with a receipt for the sale dated the day you left Italy with it. Then its up to the Italians to chase over here. I suspect they wont, I suspect the system for reporting cars scrapped then wasn't as good as now and even so not having a V5 bottom slip (the only legal UK way of verifying its been scrapped) will mean the Italians will draw a blank. Be Honest with them (not totally honest) just state it was sold/lent/given to you for the journey home and scrapped after arrival in the UK!
And have it written in Italian by a Notore.
 
#23
Fair one, just send her a letter with a receipt for the sale dated the day you left Italy with it. Then its up to the Italians to chase over here. I suspect they wont, I suspect the system for reporting cars scrapped then wasn't as good as now and even so not having a V5 bottom slip (the only legal UK way of verifying its been scrapped) will mean the Italians will draw a blank. Be Honest with them (not totally honest) just state it was sold/lent/given to you for the journey home and scrapped after arrival in the UK!
I have told her I'm willing to write or testify to that fact if needed.
I honestly hadn't considered that proving the car had been transferred to me would then make me liable for UK tax! Guess as it was my ex husband that physically took possession, I could set HMRC/DVLA on him. The CSA can't find him, but I bet they will!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#25
She doesn't need one, the rules in the 90's on disposals were slack to say the least, a signed notary letter stating they took the car out of the country and its been disposed of should be an end to it!
 
#26
That might backfire in UK, if the Italians follow up.

- The car was unlawfully driven in UK, because UK residents are not normally permitted to drive foreign registered vehicles in UK (unless its a temporary hire or if they are EU-based for work and using a company car, etc).

- The car did not have UK or Italian car tax.

- Presumably the car was used without Mot or Italian equivalent.

- The car cannot have been insured whilst it was in use in UK.
Because of the usual complications trying to do anything administrative in France and because I was returning to the UK -for a long time I had UK insurance and a French MOT
- Which was acceptable to my insurance company - and saved a lot of admin fuckwittery.

Of course I had no Tax - but it was the letter rather than spirit of the law** I was breaking as I was insured and my vehicle road worthy.

So it may have been in the same sort of grey area -


Of course all around me in France now are UK reg cars with no MOT and sometimes no insurance - valid or not.
Brexit could be painful for some



**Of course on getting back to the UK I was no longer road legal - but you can drive a non MOT vehicle to its test - but cannot make other stops
I confirmed with plod that there was no restriction on length of journey as long as it was direct to a booked MOT. So whilst Portsmouth - Bristol was kicking the arse out of it, it was not illegal
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#27
An arser I know lives in France, his vehicles are UK registered, taxed and MOT'd. He has to bring them back during the year to avoid registering them in france, its just simply easier and legal. I suspect that Les Flics could round up the ilegal UK vehicles if they could be arsed. A pity they dont but I cant see Brexit having much difference.
 
#28
An arser I know lives in France, his vehicles are UK registered, taxed and MOT'd. He has to bring them back during the year to avoid registering them in france, its just simply easier and legal. .
This time for the 1st few years I did the same but its a pain in the arse from the south of France + with it being an old landie was never quite sure when to book the ferry home.
French wife helped negotiate the twatishry that is the prefecture

I suspect that Les Flics could round up the ilegal UK vehicles if they could be arsed. A pity they dont but I cant see Brexit having much difference.
Periodically the Gendarmes do run random VCPs - not so much since the bacalan - ranging from stopping everyone to specifically targeting UK reg cars

Ive also been pulled a few times owing to the right hooker French plates combo** on general principles I suppose.

I can see if Brexit results in France paying more UK motorists being an easy target for some rebalancing of the books


**and on one occasion not pulled because swmbo was I the pax seat, but from plods expression he would have done had he realised soon enough as it was we were right next to him before he twigged that I was RHD.


Edit at the moment theres much wailing and nashing of teeth ( picked up by the mirror of course) that Brexit means 1000s of ex pats must change their driving licence - this is a Brexit Issue - Mays Fault - confusing for old people - another cost - so unfair - been ok for years etc

Im currently being shunned by the expat community for pointing out that this shouldn't affect any of us because we have all done it all ready** as its a legal requirement already - ergo everyone is complaining that Brexit means we will no longer be able to flout the law.


**My applications in the post because im equally guilty of that one
 
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#29
You didn't perchance get a receipt from the scrap dealer?
Yes, I probably did.

Do you still have a receipt for something you sold 18 years ago? ;-)

(Trust me, I've pulled every scrap of paper out trying to find it. I've found payslips dating back to 1992, every posting order I had in the 80s, but nothing relating to this particular car!)
 
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#31
Were you in Naples when there was a big investigation into the BFPO there? Staff, presumably LEs, had been intercepting the HMRC 'Yellow Forms" that allowed Tax-free imports back to the UK to be registered. The investigation also involved the NATO MTO (an RAF Flt Lt) and 'Tony 4 Laner'; those who lived in Naples will know the latter.

Whilst we were waiting for our car to be ready in the UK (for me to drive to Naples) we went to the SAAB dealership in Agnano to look at the same (tax-free) car we were importing. The local salesman cheerfully informed us that we could get the same car from them, with all the BFPO paperwork, at a cheaper price. The corruption was widespread and very well established.
I was there for a few months in 2011, Everyone from the pizza maker to the hotel security guard were on the take. I enjoyed myself immensely in the rubbish strewn shit hole. Even though I did get arrested for **** all (The one time in my life I genuinely was being law abiding).
 
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#32
If she cant prove the car left Italy, I doubt a lawyer will be of much help.
It will probably be cheaper and faster to bribe the corrupt *******, failing that, ask the local Don for a favour on the day of his daughter wedding.
Ooh, I like that. I might steal it for a sub plot in a film that I'm thinking of writing!
 
#33
It sounds like the OP, having chosen to observe the "spirit" of the law rather than the "letter" of it, now finds the Italians want to take a bite off his/his sisters rear. This seems to be a good example of how to do things correctly in the first place, so they can't come back to haunt you in later years.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#34
It sounds like the OP, having chosen to observe the "spirit" of the law rather than the "letter" of it, now finds the Italians want to take a bite off his/his sisters rear. This seems to be a good example of how to do things correctly in the first place, so they can't come back to haunt you in later years.
The past is a different country, even then vehicle movements were always recorded on computers.
 
#35
It sounds like the OP, having chosen to observe the "spirit" of the law rather than the "letter" of it, now finds the Italians want to take a bite off his/his sisters rear. This seems to be a good example of how to do things correctly in the first place, so they can't come back to haunt you in later years.
@Grey_Mafia65 is of the Lumpy Jumper persuasion. I'm sure she would provide piccies to prove it.
 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
#36
I'd be really grateful for any help and advice regarding the Italian equivalent of the DVLA (MIT) and a historical car transfer.

Back in 1999, my parents went to live with my sister in Italy and my father insisted on buying a car. It had to be registered in my sister's name as my father wasn't a resident, but the car was never used. My father popped his clogs in April 2000, and after 6 months of the car sitting on the drive gathering dust, my mother said that I could have it. My ex flew over to Rome, picked up the car and drove it back to the UK.
As we were under the impression that we could drive the car on Italian plates for a year before registering the car with the DVLA, that's what we did.... for two years. In 2002, on obtaining some cash, I bought another car and sold the Italian car to a scrap dealer and as far as I was concerned, it was out of my life.

Except it's not. I've received a message from my sister in Italy that the MIT are chasing her for 18 years of car tax on the vehicle! She hasn't got any paperwork on the car and has been asking me if I have any paperwork on it. I don't, and she's panicking as she's looking at a bill of thousands of Euros.

My sister is VERY level-headed, and I highly doubt that she wouldn't have completed the correct paperwork when we took the car in 2000. In fact, I must have had some proof of ownership so that I could have registered the car in the UK or indeed to have been able to sell the car on (although I can't remember, it was 18 years ago!). However the MIT are telling my sister the onus is on her to provide proof that she doesn't have the car.

Can anyone (particularly anyone with experience of living in Italy and dealing with the MIT) give any advice? My sister says she is going to contact a lawyer to fight this but I'd be grateful for any (USEFUL) advice that might help get her out of this mess!

Editted to bold relevant information - the car was not registered in the UK whilst I had ownership.
do you have any photographs of the car in this country ie with a prominent item in the background that proves its here not there ?
otherwise what sort of car was it ?
it might pay to find a scrap one and some how get the details on to it ?
also what ferry company did you use ? they may well have the registration number on their records
 
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#37
...........The car cannot have been insured whilst it was in use in UK.
It might have been insured. It depends whether or not the driver of the car on it's journey to the UK had insurance and what kind of insurance that driver had. For example, my motor trade policy says I'm insured to drive any car whether I own it or not, for motor trade purposes, and that I'm insured to drive any car belonging to me for social, domestic, pleasure and for business use. There are no stipulations or restrictions in the policy or on the certificate regarding the registration, MOT or tax status of vehicles. * Disclaimer - Obviously I do not know the insurance situation of the OP or anyone who may have driven the car.

I can't remember who I sold it to, just a number out of the local rag advertising that they'd buy MOT failures, etc.
Did they pay cash or cheque ? I guess it would be cash as it would have been before the scrap metal thievery reguations came in.
Long shot, but.... Do you have a record of the VIN ? If you do, I suppose you could write to DVLA and ask if they have any record of anyone attempting to register it, or if they've had anyone contact them in relation to it.

Other than that, as previously mentioned, do you have any photographs of the car once it was in this country, which may give some clue as to when this was, ie exif data from photos etc.

Is there anything else which might add up to a 'paper trail' for this car, such as an invoice bearing it's Italian registration plate ? Even if you haven't got one, a garage which serviced the car back in the UK might have a duplicate they can provide a copy of ?

You only have to SORN or tax a vehicle if it's UK registered, and you can only do it if the vehicle is in your name. If anyone other than the registered keeper attempted to SORN a vehicle, the application was rejected by DVLA.
 
#38
She doesn't need one, the rules in the 90's on disposals were slack to say the least, a signed notary letter stating they took the car out of the country and its been disposed of should be an end to it!
If that was the case wouldn't everyone do it? The Italians are second only to the Greeks when it come to avoiding taxes.
 
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#39
do you have any photographs of the car in this country ie with a prominent item in the background that proves its here not there ?
otherwise what sort of car was it ?
it might pay to find a scrap one and some how get the details on to it ?
also what ferry company did you use ? they may well have the registration number on their records
The photo idea is a good one, I'll have a scout round. It was a Rover 400. It was my ex that brought it over, so I have no idea what ferry he got, can't even remember exactly when it was brought over so that's will be a bit of a last chance clutching at straws search if we have to.
 
#40
The photo idea is a good one, I'll have a scout round. It was a Rover 400. It was my ex that brought it over, so I have no idea what ferry he got, can't even remember exactly when it was brought over so that's will be a bit of a last chance clutching at straws search if we have to.
Tell ‘em it was on this one, job jobbed. :omg:

4496C938-B204-420A-85D4-8B456B463FC0.jpeg
 
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