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Hiroshima Day

And keep in mind that the bombing raids in Germany killed far more than the two nukes did in Japan. Google reckons 400k Germans were killed in total in the bombing of Germany.
The Fire bombing of Tokyo March 9th 1945, outright killed more japanese in 1 night than both Atomic bombs using standard A/N M76 Napalm bombs
 
When the nuclear club was much smaller with just us, the Americans, the Russians and the French on the periphery, I couldn’t see the point of us being a member of it. It got us a seat on the top table of international wheeling and dealing but we could probably have got that anyway and if it didn’t, was that really worth it?

The reason I couldn’t see the point was because if the two most likely candidates to kick off Armageddon had a mind to press the button, our bit was going to be pretty small beer in the greater scheme of ending all intelligent life world!

We might as well use the money for the pubic good. The NHS, pension increases for the elderly and housing for the homeless etc.

Since the end of the Cold War and the huge changes that have taken place on the geo political world stage, I’ve completely reversed my views.

The worlds nuclear club has enlarged considerably from the two main players and a couple of small guys to enough players now to probably form a full football team with one or two reserves.

From a diplomatic point of view, taking The Americans and the French out of the equation, some of newish players are people who we would be very happy to share afternoon tea with but some of them would get an invite to the tea party only because we feel it’s the civilised thing to do rather than exclude them and cause problems.

Then of course, there are a couple of people who we wouldn’t invite at all because we just know it’s a complete waste of time trying to converse civilly with them.

Given the for want of a better description, the new world nuclear order, I’m of the view that it’s extremely important that we have our nuclear deterrent and that it’s as good as it is.

I trust that having it does mean that some tin pot dictator or tin pot government will take us very seriously if they do ponder what their chances might be because for some reason, they need a distraction or they simply do think now might be the time to rearrange the world stage.

And if it doesn’t put them off, we can at least ensure that they don’t get to enjoy any spoils of war in their new radioactive smokey glass empire.
"Really don't mind, if you sit this one, out..."
 
On December 7, 1941, the Japanese committed possibly the most monumental error of judgment in history by kicking the USA in the nuts. It caused the US to crystallise the idea of producing atomic weapons, and with all haste.

Nearly 80 years later, every day I look at a reminder of it. I live on Douglas Lake, Sevier County, Tennessee. On December 7, 1941 I would have been looking at bean fields. On February 2, 1942, construction of Douglas Dam commenced. It involved building a railway spur to the site, a hutted camp for the workers and the dam was complete in February 1943, with 143MW capacity. The lake is 44 sq miles. For comparison, that is equivalent to the combined total of the 12 largest reservoirs in the UK. Or add together all the lakes in the Lake District, the Möhnesee and Edersee and you‘re still nowhere near it.

View attachment 494987

View attachment 494988

This lake is one of 5 in this area, all producing power for the aluminum plant at Alcoa and the to-be-built uranium enrichment plant at Oak Ridge.

The Clinton Engineer Works, as it was originally known, consisted of a number of specific plants, but the key one was K-25, the gaseous diffusion plant. It took until 1944 to build this, it was the largest building in the world at 1.6M sq ft.

View attachment 494985

To this day, Oak Ridge National Laboratory and the Y-12 National Security Complex work on nuclear weapons, with the most powerful supercomputer in the world (Summit).

The Los Alamos site, the Hanford site, the B-29 program, the Silverplate program, all were enormous undertakings.

But then I see things like this:

View attachment 494990

My only thought is “fvck them”.

I’m just going to go look at the lake for a bit.
A few years ago Kyushu university admitted its medical school staff dissected a captured B-29 crew alive sans anesthesia
 
A few years ago Kyushu university admitted its medical school staff dissected a captured B-29 crew alive sans anesthesia

I reiterate what I said later in this thread. Not justification per se for nuking them In retribution, but justification for nuking them to avoid more of that kind of thing.

Either way, fvck them.
 
A few years ago Kyushu university admitted its medical school staff dissected a captured B-29 crew alive sans anesthesia
For that reason alone, I say the f**ckers had it to coming to them and deserved every bit of retribution. And I'm not sorry one whit.

Unit 731 in Manchuria conducted some pretty horrific war crimes against Chinese and Koreans too. A recent film (2015) has been made about the crimes that were committed there.

Unit 731:
This film explores a side of world history that is largely unknown to the Western World. Documenting the development of WWII from the perspective of the Far Eastern Front, the story of the gruesome human research center, UNIT 731, is also revealed. For centuries Japan attempted to annex Manchuria, a vast land in the Northeast of China. In 1931 they succeeded and immediately established the puppet state of Manchukuo, where they began human experimentation in an effort to create weapons of mass destruction for use in global warfare. In 1937 Imperial Japan declared full-scale war on China, and like its AXIS-partner, Nazi Germany, committed some of the most horrific war crimes of WWII. To this day, the impact of Imperial Japanese war crimes continues to affect the people of China and many other Asian nations that suffered under their wartime policies.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
I've always considered the use of atomic bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima abhorrent, but shied away from condemning them outright due to the horrific battles US forces were forced to fight as they Island hopped their way to Japan.

I speculated that maybe the atomic bombings, as horrific as they were, ultimately saved a greater number of lives than they took.

Then I saw this highlighted today, General MacArthur later stating that he disagreed with their use, and I'm all confused again.

View attachment 495130
Source: https://www.macarthurmemorial.org/D...hur-Letter-to-Professor-Carl-L-Shermer?bidId=
The same MacArthur who wanted to use them against the invading Chinese in Korea?
 
Was I the only one who inwardly cheered when the Union Flag turned up? And thought "boo" when the Tricolour did?

Interestingly, according to that animation we are the only country to have successfully nuked the US.

Also, according to the end of the animation, the US appear to have nuked Japan multiple times, not just the two that ended in their surrender.
 
I'm sure I've read a book on the subject but all I can really remember is that the Japanese Kwangtung army that they destroyed was considered to be one of the most prestigious Japanese armies and the only one remaining that hadn't been ripped apart elsewhere.

Don't believe it.
In Dr Coox's Book Nomonhan, you get a full accounting of the Kwangtung Army. By the time the Soviets stormed over the border it had dropped massively in quality. Most, if not all, of its equipment and trained personnel had been stripped to feed other fronts. The losses had been replaced by massive numbers of untrained conscripts and cheap weapons such as mortars. So what you had was a peasant conscript army, with a few small arms and such equipment they did have was obsolete and not of any use on other fronts.
The Army even lacked the morale advantage of the rest of the Imperial Japanese Army, hence why you get PoW's.

Against that you had a Soviet Land army fully equipped and experienced from fighting the Germans. It really was a horrible outmatching. Think Battle of Ulundi, or the Anglo-Zanzibar War for comparison, where you have two utterly mismatched forces.

There was a US Destroyer USS Turner (DD648)which blew up outside NY harbor sub net while a scratch team tried to defuse the hedgehogs while returning them to the magazine before entering port

15 Officers and 123 men went up

There were a two Hedgehog prematures that I am aware of, with this one being the second. If memory serves the USN fuses were different to the British one, and the US used fuses the British didn't regard as safe.
That being said the other one was a British ship that had a detonation.

I'd really need to sit down with my notes and do a lot of digging to work it out.
 
Bit of a gap in the data shown if you believe the allegations that Israel have and SA had them.

Both have managed to keep tests very quiet.
 
For that reason alone, I say the f**ckers had it to coming to them and deserved every bit of retribution. And I'm not sorry one whit.

Unit 731 in Manchuria conducted some pretty horrific war crimes against Chinese and Koreans too. A recent film (2015) has been made about the crimes that were committed there.

Unit 731:
This film explores a side of world history that is largely unknown to the Western World. Documenting the development of WWII from the perspective of the Far Eastern Front, the story of the gruesome human research center, UNIT 731, is also revealed. For centuries Japan attempted to annex Manchuria, a vast land in the Northeast of China. In 1931 they succeeded and immediately established the puppet state of Manchukuo, where they began human experimentation in an effort to create weapons of mass destruction for use in global warfare. In 1937 Imperial Japan declared full-scale war on China, and like its AXIS-partner, Nazi Germany, committed some of the most horrific war crimes of WWII. To this day, the impact of Imperial Japanese war crimes continues to affect the people of China and many other Asian nations that suffered under their wartime policies.

Shiro Ishii was cut a deal by the US. Immunity for his research data,
 
They never intended to invade the Americas, only to convince the US to leave Asia to them.

The stupidity lay in a) not appreciating quite how important the non-colonised world was to US industry and b) how willing their targets would become to fight back once hit.
My impression of the Japanese strategy for winning WWII was to let the Germans win it and then to reap the benefits of being on the winning side when the spoils of war are divided up.

In Europe the French were flattened by the Germans, and Britain had limited means of influencing what was happening on the continent. With the Germans deep inside Soviet territory and looking like being the winners, it looked like the war was all but over, and the Germans would be dictating peace terms.

So, the Japanese thought that if they went out and grabbed whatever territory in south-east Asia they could lay their hands on, they could show up at the peace conference with a claim on keeping much, if not all of it. Of particular interest to them were the Dutch East Indies, with their oil reserves. This was the main oil reserve known to exist in eastern Asia at the time, and it was critical to modern military and naval operations.

The Americans were neutral, but since at least the beginning of the 20th century they had seen the Japanese as being a rival for colonial influence in China, and had led a relentless, and somewhat successful, campaign to isolate Japan diplomatically, including breaking the Anglo-Japanese alliance.

The Americans didn't need to be completely defeated, but they did need to be kept from interfering with the Japanese plans. To do this the Japanese needed to sink or damage enough of the American navy to prevent them from interfering with Japanese operations in Asia, which they were successful in doing. The Americans could of course simply build another navy, but not in time to prevent the Japanese from scooping up all the colonies in the area.

What was supposed to happen next was the Soviets were supposed to be defeated or give up, and then everyone would call time out while the world sat down at a big peace conference in Berlin while Hitler dictated to everyone what the New World Order was going to be. Japan, Italy, and other Axis allies and associates could expect to do rather well out of the peace, especially as possession was nine tenths of the law.

And then the Soviets spoiled it all by not surrendering, but instead beating the Germans and advancing on Berlin. At that point the Japanese had fully committed themselves to a war they had no way of winning and no way out of. They could instead just delay the inevitable defeat.
 
Don't believe it.
In Dr Coox's Book Nomonhan, you get a full accounting of the Kwangtung Army. By the time the Soviets stormed over the border it had dropped massively in quality. Most, if not all, of its equipment and trained personnel had been stripped to feed other fronts. The losses had been replaced by massive numbers of untrained conscripts and cheap weapons such as mortars. So what you had was a peasant conscript army, with a few small arms and such equipment they did have was obsolete and not of any use on other fronts.
The Army even lacked the morale advantage of the rest of the Imperial Japanese Army, hence why you get PoW's.

Against that you had a Soviet Land army fully equipped and experienced from fighting the Germans. It really was a horrible outmatching. Think Battle of Ulundi, or the Anglo-Zanzibar War for comparison, where you have two utterly mismatched forces.

the Soviet invasion of Manchuria is studied in depth at US Army Staff colleges.
Yes, the Kwangtung Army was weakened, but their shattering defeat was a testament to Soviet mastery of Combined arms operations.

 
the Soviet invasion of Manchuria is studied in depth at US Army Staff colleges.
Yes, the Kwangtung Army was weakened, but their shattering defeat was a testament to Soviet mastery of Combined arms operations.

Any army in 1945 could have done what the Soviets did. Even another Japanese army! It's very easy to look good when your opponent consists of a butcher, a baker and a candle-stick maker, who have been given five days training, a rifle and told to get on with it.
So please don't stick the Soviets up on some sort of pedestal. Indeed there seems to be an element of "life is cheap" about soviet tactics from the war. One of my colleagues has found a report on Soviet tanking. Apparently they suffered a very high portion of flank hits, which the report concludes is due to shitty tactical ability.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Any army in 1945 could have done what the Soviets did. Even another Japanese army! It's very easy to look good when your opponent consists of a butcher, a baker and a candle-stick maker, who have been given five days training, a rifle and told to get on with it.
So please don't stick the Soviets up on some sort of pedestal. Indeed there seems to be an element of "life is cheap" about soviet tactics from the war. One of my colleagues has found a report on Soviet tanking. Apparently they suffered a very high portion of flank hits, which the report concludes is due to shitty tactical ability.

in 12 weeks, move 3 entire armies 8,000 miles complete with their full support infrastructure to 3 fronts with almost zero local infrastructure and 1 MSR, and attack an emplaced enemy across defended in depth terrain, much of which was deemed to be ‘impassible’?

Leavenworth paper 8 neatly demolishes the popular belief of so many in the West postwar, That the Soviet Army in 1945 was the same lumbering Force the Nazis faced in 1941.

too much post war assessments of Soviet operations post war Relied on the self serving memoirs of German Generals - Generals desperate to explain away how they had been defeated by ‘Slavic untermensch.

“ we had better tactics! They were using brute force human wave attacks” is the standard German meme. Except in BAGRATION in June 1944, the Soviets totally destroyed Army Group Centre, the cream of the German army, it’s most combat experienced, and best equipped, in a matter of weeks, and advanced 400 miles - in a master class of manoeuvre warfare, and suffered lower losses than the Germans doing it.

the Soviet Army in 1944 was not the Soviet Army of Barbarossa - it was a Truly formidable force, fully deploying its doctrine of Deep Battle to devastating effect.
And we adopted Deep Battle, not the failed German doctrine of Blitzkrieg.

 
I've always considered the use of atomic bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima abhorrent, but shied away from condemning them outright due to the horrific battles US forces were forced to fight as they Island hopped their way to Japan.

I speculated that maybe the atomic bombings, as horrific as they were, ultimately saved a greater number of lives than they took.

Then I saw this highlighted today, General MacArthur later stating that he disagreed with their use, and I'm all confused again.

View attachment 495130
Source: https://www.macarthurmemorial.org/D...hur-Letter-to-Professor-Carl-L-Shermer?bidId=

Yes but he would say that, wouldn’t he?
 
in 12 weeks, move 3 entire armies 8,000 miles complete with their full support infrastructure to 3 fronts with almost zero local infrastructure and 1 MSR, and attack an emplaced enemy across defended in depth terrain, much of which was deemed to be ‘impassible’?

In peace time with no enemy opposition.

As I said, any army could have done it.

Leavenworth paper 8 neatly demolishes the popular belief of so many in the West postwar, That the Soviet Army in 1945 was the same lumbering Force the Nazis faced in 1941.

too much post war assessments of Soviet operations post war Relied on the self serving memoirs of German Generals - Generals desperate to explain away how they had been defeated by ‘Slavic untermensch.

“ we had better tactics! They were using brute force human wave attacks” is the standard German meme. Except in BAGRATION in June 1944, the Soviets totally destroyed Army Group Centre, the cream of the German army, it’s most combat experienced, and best equipped, in a matter of weeks, and advanced 400 miles - in a master class of manoeuvre warfare, and suffered lower losses than the Germans doing it.

the Soviet Army in 1944 was not the Soviet Army of Barbarossa - it was a Truly formidable force, fully deploying its doctrine of Deep Battle to devastating effect.
And we adopted Deep Battle, not the failed German doctrine of Blitzkrieg.


Ahh, Bagration, where the soviets lost 770,880 men.
In comparison the UK military KIA, for the entirety of WWII, amounts to 384,000.

F'kin masters of warfare all right. Managing to loose twice the number, on one operation, than we did in the entire war. Equally, If I remember right, the destroyed army group had been stripped of manpower and weapons to move to another part of the front due to Soviet decoy operations.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
Bit of a gap in the data shown if you believe the allegations that Israel have and SA had them.

Both have managed to keep tests very quiet.
Informed folklore has it that this co-operation started when SA promised Israel a homeland in the Transvaal for survivors of a predicted massive war in the Middle East.

In return, Israel shared certain atomic information and SA 'facilities' with the pledge that it would assist their defence with the new wonder weapons if SA needed it. This was in the 60s and 70s with SA having a 'few' things (now gone) just to be on the safe side.

Only speculative 'talk' mind you and nothing to do with the French wanting to be involved but rebuffed by SA. Elaborate gossip, nothing more...
 
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