Hiroshima Day

endure

GCM
Isn't all of that mute as we now use Trident, a US system?

It is now but it was a big deal at the time. We given them large amounts of expertise and research results and the minute the war was over they f*cked us off. Tizard all over again.
 

endure

GCM
U-S-A! U-S-A!


If you look carefully you'll see that the UK is the only country on earth that has detonated a nuclear bomb on US soil.

Now about that tea... ;-)
 

Chef

LE
Another theory is that the German physicists (especially Heisenberg) kept the fact a secret as they didn't want it to get into the hands of the military.

Are you certain about that?

Hat coat and possibly my taxi.
 

endure

GCM
If anyone is interested in the development of both the atomic and hydrogen bombs then 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb' and 'Dark Sun' by Richard Rhodes are well worth reading.

In 'The Making...' he describes not only the Manhattan Project but the life histories of all the major players like Fermi, Szilard etc. right from the original research done by the Curies, Bohr, Han and Meissner.

Highly recommended.
 

lecky

War Hero
Another factor that might explain the Russian reluctance to attack Japan until the last moments of the War, might have been their plans for a Communist Japan. Communist idea's amongst the the disillusioned Japanese public were on the rise and a worry for the Japanese Imperialists at the end of the War. It was a factor in advising the Emperor when to surrender and to whom, whilst the Militarists intended to surrender to no one. As the Western Allies brought Japan to it's knees, the Russians had nothing to gain from fully joining in and everything to lose for the prospects of establishing a Post War Communist Japan, in terms of popularity amongst the Japanese public seeking a post war alternative ideology ? Indeed, the Russian Invasion plans started with taking the large, but sparsely populated Far Northern Island of Hokkaido...not exactly a knockout blow to Japan, nor one that would leave the Soviets with the blood of a large number of the Japanese Public on their hands? Makes you wonder if Stalin was hoping for a soft(ish) Revolution?
The speed of the Japanese surrender after the Atomic Bombs took the Allies by Surprise, but it was hastily accepted by the Americans and when they pitched up in Tokyo Bay for the Surrender, they Flew the Flag that Commodore Perry Flew when he pitched up in Edo (Tokyo) Bay in 1853 to break Japanese Isolationism.
In 1853 Military might was demonstrated to the Feudal Japanese by Steamships and a parade of Marines with 3 Military bands. In 1945, the Americans announced their intentions with 2 Atomic Bombs and arrived with a massive Fleet and a thousand Aircraft Fly past, but the deliberate Flying of the same flag in 1945 as was flown in 1853 must have sent the message to the Japanese...."shall we try this again?"
 
If you look carefully you'll see that the UK is the only country on earth that has detonated a nuclear bomb on US soil.

Now about that tea... ;-)
Fair is fair, after all. We'll show you ours (Area 51) if you'll show us yours. (Rudloe Manor). ;-) :mrgreen:
 
Two days later, a million Ivans poured into Manchuria and smashed the Japanese Kwangtung army.

My granddad, a rodney in the Kwangtung army was there. He obviously didn't go for all that ritual suicide nonsense because he surrendered and spent five years in a Siberian gulag.

I've read that it was the Russian invasion and the destruction of the Kwangtung army that was the real catalyst for the Japanese surrender; not so much the atom bombs.

Meh RKKA could not even invade the Kuriles without loaned landing craft. FFS they were using trawlers to land men, to the point it made Op SeaLowe look professional. The reds were amateurs at Amphib ops .
 
I think it was a combination of that, the nukes, no access to oil and the fact that most of Japan's cities/industry had been torched by conventional bombing that led the Emperor to make the understatement of the 20th century:

"the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage"​
Add starvation brought to japan by a horrible harvest and the US Navy & Army Air Forces aptly named Operation Starvation mining and sinking much of the vessel traffic between China and Japan
 
I posted this in the snowflake outrage thread but this one seems more suited, this is my lefty mates take on it View attachment 494934

I commented asking if he thinks a ground invasion of Japan would have been preferable considering the total destruction of northern Europe and associated civilian casualties dislodging the Nazis the previous year. He came back with "Look mate, I'm not arguing all day about this, it was murder and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a psychopath who loves f**king war".
When the nuclear club was much smaller with just us, the Americans, the Russians and the French on the periphery, I couldn’t see the point of us being a member of it. It got us a seat on the top table of international wheeling and dealing but we could probably have got that anyway and if it didn’t, was that really worth it?

The reason I couldn’t see the point was because if the two most likely candidates to kick off Armageddon had a mind to press the button, our bit was going to be pretty small beer in the greater scheme of ending all intelligent life world!

We might as well use the money for the pubic good. The NHS, pension increases for the elderly and housing for the homeless etc.

Since the end of the Cold War and the huge changes that have taken place on the geo political world stage, I’ve completely reversed my views.

The worlds nuclear club has enlarged considerably from the two main players and a couple of small guys to enough players now to probably form a full football team with one or two reserves.

From a diplomatic point of view, taking The Americans and the French out of the equation, some of newish players are people who we would be very happy to share afternoon tea with but some of them would get an invite to the tea party only because we feel it’s the civilised thing to do rather than exclude them and cause problems.

Then of course, there are a couple of people who we wouldn’t invite at all because we just know it’s a complete waste of time trying to converse civilly with them.

Given the for want of a better description, the new world nuclear order, I’m of the view that it’s extremely important that we have our nuclear deterrent and that it’s as good as it is.

I trust that having it does mean that some tin pot dictator or tin pot government will take us very seriously if they do ponder what their chances might be because for some reason, they need a distraction or they simply do think now might be the time to rearrange the world stage.

And if it doesn’t put them off, we can at least ensure that they don’t get to enjoy any spoils of war in their new radioactive smokey glass empire.
 
Yes the US seaboard was the second Happy time. However, in the rest of the Atlantic things were not as happy. Here's some dull, but surprising numbers I turned up during my spigot research.
A ten pattern spread of depth charges had about 3% chance of a hit (Some sources say 1%, others 6%). In September 1941 we started fitting the Hedgehog Anti-submarine weapon. At its peak it had a hit rate of 28.5%. Doing some shitty maths that would have equated to double figures of U-boats sunk per month, instead of two or three. But due to various reasons it took nearly a year before the Hedgehog scored its first hit. Those issues were all easily fixable, but the UK fucked up. That we did should be one of the biggest scandals of the war, but it was all hidden under operational security at the time.

Those that know about the U-boat war will tell you the Germans would have been finished in a few months by that loss rate.



We were all the way through the war!
There was a US Destroyer USS Turner (DD648)which blew up outside NY harbor sub net while a scratch team tried to defuse the hedgehogs while returning them to the magazine before entering port

15 Officers and 123 men went up
 

Poppycock

Old-Salt
I've always considered the use of atomic bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima abhorrent, but shied away from condemning them outright due to the horrific battles US forces were forced to fight as they Island hopped their way to Japan.

I speculated that maybe the atomic bombings, as horrific as they were, ultimately saved a greater number of lives than they took.

Then I saw this highlighted today, General MacArthur later stating that he disagreed with their use, and I'm all confused again.

AtomicBombLetter_201406020954393472 copy.jpg

Source: https://www.macarthurmemorial.org/D...hur-Letter-to-Professor-Carl-L-Shermer?bidId=
 
Some of my mates were discussing that hentai cartoon thing by studio gibbly - Grave of the Fireflies. I haven't seen it but it's about some kids living in Japan in 45. My mates were saying how sad it was.
The guy who made it has stated he never intended it to be an anti-war film (although he is anti nuke after Fukishima). He wanted it to be a story about children not listening to their elders.
 
I've always considered the use of atomic bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima abhorrent, but shied away from condemning them outright due to the horrific battles US forces were forced to fight as they Island hopped their way to Japan.

I speculated that maybe the atomic bombings, as horrific as they were, ultimately saved a greater number of lives than they took.

Then I saw this highlighted today, General MacArthur later stating that he disagreed with their use, and I'm all confused again.

View attachment 495130
Source: https://www.macarthurmemorial.org/D...hur-Letter-to-Professor-Carl-L-Shermer?bidId=
You will find most of the Joint chiefs stating they could have won without the bomb

Simple reason is Budget the bomb threatened the very existence of the Army and Navy. the Air Force, still a part of the Army till 47 was about to stampede the War Department budget with Carrier battle groups being cut along with Armored divisions for B-50's 47's and B-36's while the other service branches scrambled to find a way to be relevant in what was thought a future push button war dropped by a Boeing product

The US ground forces post war were gutted save for the constabulary (Circle C Cowboys) in occupied Germany and the Occupation forces in Japan. Only the 82nd Airborne division was kept to full strength at Fort Bragg.
 

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