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Hiroshima Day

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
The idea, as I understand it, was to make it impossible for the US to respond for the initial period of the war. At which point the Japanese charge round hoover up everything (Inc India and possibly Aus, I forget if that was in the master plan), and then the US would shrug its shoulders and say "ok then. We'll let that one slide.", and everyone would be happy.

Yup


Although the projected extension of the Co-Prosperity Sphere was extremely ambitious, the Japanese goal during the "Greater East Asia War" was not to acquire all the territory designated in the plan at once, but to prepare for a future decisive war some 20 years later by conquering the Asian colonies of the defeated European powers, as well as the Philippines from the United States.[49]

When Tōjō spoke on the plan to the House of Peers he was vague about the long-term prospects, but insinuated that the Philippines and Burma might be allowed independence, although vital territories such as Hong Kong would remain under Japanese rule.[26]




Japanese-governed[edit]
Government-General of Formosa
Hong Kong, the Philippines, Portuguese Macau (to be purchased from Portugal), the Paracel Islands, and Hainan Island (to be purchased from the Chinese puppet regime).

Contrary to its name it was not intended to include the island of Formosa (Taiwan).

South Seas Government OfficeGuam, Nauru, Ocean Island, the Gilbert Islands and Wake Island

Melanesian Region Government-General or South Pacific Government-General British New Guinea, Australian New Guinea, the Admiralties, New Britain, New Ireland, the Solomon Islands, the Santa Cruz Archipelago, the Ellice Islands, the Fiji Islands, the New Hebrides, New Caledonia, the Loyalty Islands, and the Chesterfield Islands

Eastern Pacific Government-General Hawaii Territory, Howland Island, Baker Island, the Phoenix Islands, the Rain Islands, the Marquesas and Tuamotu Islands, the Society Islands, the Cook and Austral Islands, all of the Samoan Islands, Tonga and the Chilean islands of Rapa Nui and Sala y Gómez.

The possibility of re-establishing the defunct Kingdom of Hawaii was also considered, based on the model of Manchukuo.[51] Those favoring annexation of Hawaii (on the model of Karafuto) intended to use the local Japanese community, which had constituted 43% (c. 160,000) of Hawaii's population in the 1920s, as a leverage.[51] Hawaii was to become self-sufficient in food production, while the Big Five corporations of sugar and pineapple processing were to be broken up.[52] No decision was ever reached regarding whether Hawaii would be annexed to Japan, become a puppet kingdom, or be used as a bargaining chip for leverage against the US.

[51]Australian Government-GeneralAll of Australia including Tasmania. Australia and New Zealand were to accommodate up to two million Japanese settlers.[51]

However, there are indications that the Japanese were also looking for a separate peace with Australia, and a satellite rather than colony status similar to that of Burma and the Philippines.[51]

New Zealand Government-General The New Zealand North and South Islands, Macquarie Island, as well as the rest of the Southwest Pacific
Ceylon Government-General: All of India below a line running approximately from Portuguese Goa to the coastline of the Bay of Bengal

Alaska Government-General The Alaska Territory, the Yukon Territory, the western portion of the Northwest Territories, Alberta, British Columbia, and Washington.

There were also plans to make the American West Coast (comprising California and Oregon) a semi-autonomous satellite state. This latter plan was not seriously considered; it depended upon a global victory of Axis forces.[51]

Asian puppet states[edit]
Manchukuo Chinese ManchuriaMengjiangOuter Mongolia territories west of Manchuria
Republic of China Other parts of China occupied by JapanEast Indies KingdomDutch East Indies, British Borneo, and Christmas Islands, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and Portuguese Timor (to be purchased from Portugal)

State of Burma Burma proper, Assam (a province of the British Raj) and large part of Bengal
Kingdom of Malaya Remainder of the Malay states
Kingdom of Cambodia Cambodia and parts of French Cochinchina

Kingdom of Annam Annam, Laos, and Tonkin Empire of Vietnam

Independent member states

Kingdom of Siam

Thailand, and parts of Cambodia, Laos, and Burma that it had lost to the British and French

Republic of India

India, excluding the Southern portion that would go to Japan

---------------- ------------------------- -----------------
 
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Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
I stand corrected by your superior knowledge of perverted Japanese pornographic comics.
the google-fu is strong in this one.

From Another Place:

Mr Harrison writes:

My Great Uncle, Peter Baguley is buried in Batavia (Jakarta) War Cemetery after he died of beri-beri - 2 days after his POW Camp on Sumatra was liberated.

He left Cambridge University, where his great passion was rowing, to join the RAF and his first posting was to Singapore. His troop ship was diverted to the Dutch East Indes, but was captured on route and so Peter spent the rest of the war as a Japanese Prisoner of War.

My Grandmother and his other 2 sisters were so devastated that they barely ever spoke of him again. Most of his family knew little about him, but 4 years ago, I was lucky enough to visit his grave during a trip to Jakarta.

The Cemetery is stunningly beautiful, immaculately maintained and a little haven of peace - surrounded by the jostling city. I had the opportunity to walk along the rows of graves of hundreds of British, Australian, New Zealander and other Commonwealth servicemen. Many, I suspect have never been visited by their immediate families.

RIP Peter and all your fellow FEPOWs.

Rarely visited but definitely Not Forgotten

We Will Remember Them
 
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WALT

War Hero
and to work to remove a statue memorializing the victims from in front of the Japanese embassy in Seoul.[138]

The Koreans must have contracted in a Brit municipal council's works department. They don't appear to have made much progress - it's still there.
And very nice I think it is too. Makes the Japs uncomfortable? Tough shit.


220px-Japanese_Embassy_in_Seoul_and_watched_from_behind_a_bronze_statue_of_comfort_women.JPG
 
The Soviet invasion of Manchuria was quite a big deal, but not generally known about in the west.

1.5 million Soviet soldiers took part with a shed load of tanks and artillery too.

I'm sure I've read a book on the subject but all I can really remember is that the Japanese Kwangtung army that they destroyed was considered to be one of the most prestigious Japanese armies and the only one remaining that hadn't been ripped apart elsewhere.

Hence the surrender (rather than surrendering because of the atom bombs).
Even less known here is the 1939 USSR v Japan Manchuria boarder war, short but USSR got the silverware. It has been said the Japanese defeat resulted in USA and UK to seriously underestimate the Japanese. Given the same Red Army was given a kicking by Finland couple of months later.
 
Two days later, a million Ivans poured into Manchuria and smashed the Japanese Kwangtung army.

My granddad, a rodney in the Kwangtung army was there. He obviously didn't go for all that ritual suicide nonsense because he surrendered and spent five years in a Siberian gulag.

I've read that it was the Russian invasion and the destruction of the Kwangtung army that was the real catalyst for the Japanese surrender; not so much the atom bombs.

The post surrender process was handled by the US. The Russians, French and British had no say.
 
Well this came as a surprise.

The RAF trained to drop the Bomb from Lancasters as the B29 bomb bays weren't large enough.


Black Lancasters Matter.
 

Slime

LE
Nice to see that the Frogs had no problem nuking Africa.
It also needs updating to include who has been doing what since 1998.


Google: detonations.app
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
And keep in mind that the bombing raids in Germany killed far more than the two nukes did in Japan. Google reckons 400k Germans were killed in total in the bombing of Germany.
I think you also need to consider how many Japanese were killed from the relentless bombing by the USAAF in the final 18 months of the conflict.

The difference with the events at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was that it took just one bomb on each occasion rather than many thousands of sorties delivering vast amounts of ordnance daily onto the largest cities including Tokyo, Yokohama and others which were truly flattened.

In my opinion it took two nuclear weapons to end the war with the Japanese and saved millions of Japanese and Allied lives. If it had taken one more of the same for a conclusion then we should have used that too, probably in September 1945. We would have done the same then as we did after the actual surrender by pouring aid and facilities into a defeated Japan.

The Soviets? They were like all the bullies on this planet, just joining the fight when a favourable conclusion was no longer in doubt. They had already got what they wanted in Europe, treaty or no treaty concerning Manchuria - and that's why we spent the next 50 years facing them off because they couldn't be trusted.

Which leads me to my final point which is, as had been said already, not only did we do the right thing in Japan but we also demonstrated to the Soviets what we could do to them.
 
The Soviets? They were like all the bullies on this planet, just joining the fight when a favourable conclusion was no longer in doubt. They had already got what they wanted in Europe, treaty or no treaty concerning Manchuria - and that's why we spent the next 50 years facing them off because they couldn't be trusted.

To be fair, Ivan accused the west of dilly dallying over the invasion of the continent, which Stalin was desperate for to take some pressure from the eastern front.

Agree with the rest of your post though.
 
For what it's worth, I believe the use of atomic weapons against Japan was justified from the perspective of saving Allied and Japanese lives. That should be a no-brainer.

I'm not convinced though that retribution for Japanese war crimes can be a justification though. Even in general war, the taking of life is predicated on saving life. If a city is bombed and civilians killed then it's because to take it by storm is more costly or to leave industry in production will cause more bloodshed elsewhere. Collateral damage is only acceptable when it is minimised to any extent possible.

To state that killing at scale is an act of retribution for barbarity is, I think, to sink to the same level of barbarity.

Sure, we executed Germans and Japanese alike for war crimes. But only after the application of due process and within a strict legal framework. And that is an entirely different thing.

I agree; retribution for war crimes does not serve as a justification for use of nuclear weapons, especially against populous areas.

What does serve as justification is the experience on the part of the Allies that the Japanese would pretty much fight to the death in defence of their homeland, unless put in a position of understanding the pointless of such a defence. The barbarism displayed by the IJA up to that point didn’t serve as a justification per se, more as an imperative to avoid more of it, especially as it would be so utterly pointless.

Or as my old Gran used to say, “Fvck ‘em”.
 
I had it patiently explained to me that nuking the Japs was racist because they were Asians and we never nuked the Germans "coz they is white".

Sometimes wibble is not worthy of refutation.

See you and raise: I've had one bloke tell me the real reason the Americans didn't nuke Germany was because the US government is controlled by Freemasons and they didn't want to drop instant sunshine on their German "brothers".

I invite you to take a moment to appreciate the sheer moon-howling, window-licking glory of that. :oops:
 
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Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Britain was frozen out of US nuclear parties after we had handed them everything we knew about the subject.

So we built our own. Tests were carried out in Australia and ,notoriously, at Christmas Island.
 
The Soviet invasion of Manchuria was quite a big deal, but not generally known about in the west.

1.5 million Soviet soldiers took part with a shed load of tanks and artillery too.

I'm sure I've read a book on the subject but all I can really remember is that the Japanese Kwangtung army that they destroyed was considered to be one of the most prestigious Japanese armies and the only one remaining that hadn't been ripped apart elsewhere.

Hence the surrender (rather than surrendering because of the atom bombs).

What is rarely heard, is that part of the Soviets attack plan was an invasion of Hokkaido, planned to start on 24th of August.
While this was kept secret from the US, the indications are that the Americans were aware of the plan.
Hokkaido, as I'm certain you are aware, is the northern-most island of 'main-land' Japan.

Although the plan was to strike north and take the island of Sakhalin, it's quite likely that the would have turned south and attempted an invasion of Honshu, the main island.

This didn't happen because of Japan's surrender.
However, given that the US invasion of Japan wasn't due to start until November at the earliest and January at the latest, it's likely that the predicted heavy casualties in conquering Japan would have been borne by the Soviets and not the US.

Whilst I have no strong feelings either way regarding the dropping of the bombs, I have my doubts that a US invasion of Japan would have taken place.
The Soviet battle plan for the invasion of Hokkaido is in this link here- I have no reason to doubt its authenticity.
Soviet Battle Plan for Invasion of Hokkaido
 
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endure

GCM
Britain was frozen out of US nuclear parties after we had handed them everything we knew about the subject.

So we built our own. Tests were carried out in Australia and ,notoriously, at Christmas Island.


The Atomic Energy (McMahon) Act

" Implementing the McMahon Act created a substantial rift between United States and Britain. The new control of "restricted data" prevented the United States' allies from receiving any information, despite the fact that the British and Canadian governments, before contributing technology and manpower to the Manhattan Project, had made agreements with the United States about the post-war sharing of nuclear technology. Those agreements had been formalized in the 1943 Quebec Agreement. In the case of the United Kingdom, these were developed further in the 1944 Hyde Park Agreement, which was signed by Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt.[33] "


 
Well this came as a surprise.

The RAF trained to drop the Bomb from Lancasters as the B29 bomb bays weren't large enough.


Black Lancasters Matter.
Thanks for that. It was a eye-opener to learn that the Lancaster was being considered as a back up plane to the Silver Plate B-29 for the atomic missions. Considering the fact that the Lancaster couldn't fly as fast or as far as the B-29 (without refueling) it's probably just as well that they didn't go. It might have been a case where the shock wave and blast took out the delivery plane. The Russians had a near miss of that when they exploded the Tsar Bomba over Novaya Zemlya in 1961.

Test[edit]
Despite the creation of the Tu-95V bomb-carrier aircraft, the actual test of the Tsar Bomba was postponed for political reasons; namely Khrushchev's visit to the United States and a pause in the Cold War. The Tu-95V during this period was flown to Uzin (situated in today's Ukraine) and was used as a training aircraft, therefore it was no longer listed as a combat aircraft. With the beginning of a new round of the Cold War in 1961 the test was resumed. The Tu-95V had all connectors in its automatic release mechanism replaced, the bomb bay doors removed and the aircraft itself covered with a special reflective white paint. Khrushchev himself announced the upcoming tests of the Tsar Bomba in his report at the 22nd Congress of the CPSU on 17 October 1961.


Site of the detonation
The Tsar Bomba was tested on 30 October 1961, flown to its test site by Major Andrei Durnovtsev. The Tu-95 bombers were designed to carry much lighter and smaller weapons (at maximum 27 tons after modernization[26]), meaning the Tsar Bomba was too big to be placed on a missile and too heavy for the planes to transport it to the target with enough fuel.[23]

Taking off from the Olenya airfield in the Kola Peninsula, the release plane was accompanied by a Tu-16 observer plane that took air samples and filmed the test. Both aircraft were painted with the special reflective paint to minimize heat damage. Despite this effort, Durnovtsev and his crew were given only a 50% chance of surviving the test.[10]

The bomb, weighing 27 metric tons, was so large (8 metres [26 ft] long by 2.1 metres [6 ft 11 in] in diameter) that the Tu-95V had to have its bomb bay doors and fuselage fuel tanks removed[1]. The bomb was attached to an 800-kilogram (1,800 lb), 1,600-square-metre (17,000 sq ft) parachute, which gave the release and observer planes time to fly about 45 kilometres (28 mi) away from ground zero, giving them a 50 percent chance of survival.[23] The bomb was released two hours after takeoff from a height of 10,500 m (34,500 ft) on a test target within Sukhoy Nos. The Tsar Bomba detonated at 11:32 (or 11:33) Moscow Time on 30 October 1961, over the Mityushikha Bay nuclear testing range (Sukhoy Nos Zone C), north of the Arctic Circle over the Novaya Zemlya archipelago in the Arctic Ocean, at a height of 4,200 m ASL (4000 m above the target)[4][22][25] (some sources suggest 3,900 m ASL and 3,700 m above target, or 4,500 m). By this time the Tu-95V had already escaped to 39 km (24 mi) away, and the Tu-16 53.5 km (33.2 mi) away. When detonation occurred, the shock wave caught up with the Tu-95V at a distance of 115 km (71 mi) and the Tu-16 at 205 km (127 mi). The Tu-95V dropped 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) in the air because of the shock wave but was able to recover and land safely.[10] According to initial data, the Tsar Bomba had a nuclear yield of 58.6 Mt (245 PJ) (significantly exceeding what the design itself would suggest) and was overestimated at values all the way up to 75 Mt (310 PJ).
 
The Atomic Energy (McMahon) Act

" Implementing the McMahon Act created a substantial rift between United States and Britain. The new control of "restricted data" prevented the United States' allies from receiving any information, despite the fact that the British and Canadian governments, before contributing technology and manpower to the Manhattan Project, had made agreements with the United States about the post-war sharing of nuclear technology. Those agreements had been formalized in the 1943 Quebec Agreement. In the case of the United Kingdom, these were developed further in the 1944 Hyde Park Agreement, which was signed by Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt.[33] "



Isn't all of that mute as we now use Trident, a US system?
 

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