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Hiroshima Day

ROMFT

Old-Salt
As I said earlier, do not consider the Japanese mental situation before the end of WWII as something we today can recognise, it is a totally alien culture.
Read somewhere that any officer or official who put 2 and 2 together, realised that they were losing the war and suggested making peace, would be killed off pretty quickly.
 
Nah, Werner Heisenberg was another self justifying Nazi who rewrote the facts after the war to fit his new 'I was a good German' truth.
And the real truth was, he simply got his maths wrong and went off on the wrong path from first principles.

The Americans relied on 'Jew Science' as Hitler called it and worked out they could build a bomb using pounds of Uranium.

Hiesenburg used idiologically pure German Science and calculated a bomb needed tonnes of Uranium.


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Yes, thanks to the British habit of secretly recording important POWs, we know that Heisenberg's first reaction to the news of Hiroshima was " no, it couldn't have been done".
 
Whether or not you believe the Hiroshima bombing was a righteous act it's worth remembering that due to the radioactive contamination of the earth from nuclear explosions one of the few ways steel for sensitive scientific instruments like geiger counters can now be obtained is by scavenging it from WW1 ship wrecks at the bottom of the oceans.

 

lert

LE
Excellent post.

I think it is arguable whether the biggest error is history was Pearl Harbour or Grofaz declaring war on the USA shortly afterwards.

The fact that he declared war on the mightiest industrial machine in history (well evidenced in your post) might lead to the latter being the worst decision making ever.
I believe it was Hess that said that in his opinion Hitler declared war on the US because he believed that the U-Boats could close the Atlantic and prevent the deployment of the US Army in the ETO.

Any which way you look at it, that's a colossal gamble but it is at least possible to see his logic. And given that the Germans were still some way off their high water mark in Russia, despite the December 41 reverses, it was not perhaps altogether unreasonable to think that the USSR could be defeated in isolation.

Of course, Hitler was a massive twat and a bit of a thicky.
 
Whether or not you believe the Hiroshima bombing was a righteous act it's worth remembering that due to the radioactive contamination of the earth from nuclear explosions one of the few ways steel for sensitive scientific instruments like geiger counters can now be obtained is by scavenging it from WW1 ship wrecks at the bottom of the oceans.

There's one of those time lapse animations out there showing a world map of which countries were exploding bombs willy nilly and when.

ETA: found it:
 

lert

LE
For what it's worth, I believe the use of atomic weapons against Japan was justified from the perspective of saving Allied and Japanese lives. That should be a no-brainer.

I'm not convinced though that retribution for Japanese war crimes can be a justification though. Even in general war, the taking of life is predicated on saving life. If a city is bombed and civilians killed then it's because to take it by storm is more costly or to leave industry in production will cause more bloodshed elsewhere. Collateral damage is only acceptable when it is minimised to any extent possible.

To state that killing at scale is an act of retribution for barbarity is, I think, to sink to the same level of barbarity.

Sure, we executed Germans and Japanese alike for war crimes. But only after the application of due process and within a strict legal framework. And that is an entirely different thing.
 
For what it's worth, I believe the use of atomic weapons against Japan was justified from the perspective of saving Allied and Japanese lives. That should be a no-brainer.

I'm not convinced though that retribution for Japanese war crimes can be a justification though. Even in general war, the taking of life is predicated on saving life. If a city is bombed and civilians killed then it's because to take it by storm is more costly or to leave industry in production will cause more bloodshed elsewhere. Collateral damage is only acceptable when it is minimised to any extent possible.

To state that killing at scale is an act of retribution for barbarity is, I think, to sink to the same level of barbarity.

Sure, we executed Germans and Japanese alike for war crimes. But only after the application of due process and within a strict legal framework. And that is an entirely different thing.
Surely, bombing as an act of retribution would have been half a dozen air bursts over Tokyo?
I also take issue with the assumption that one or two people were responsible for their treatment of PoW and prisoners in general. First hand accounts demonstrate that their hatred of the none Jap went from Pte Blogs Sushi to the highest in command. You can't change that with a few token hangings and hope they'll change.
I'd have shed no tears over a Tokyo solution.
 
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I believe it was Hess that said that in his opinion Hitler declared war on the US because he believed that the U-Boats could close the Atlantic and prevent the deployment of the US Army in the ETO.

To quote Harris (just to get another common stick in this conversation) what a rather childish delusion! By 1941 the Battle of the Atlantic was best described as "We're not going to loose". Start of 1942, the murdering of the U-boats began. It is a great scandal that we should have swept the U-boats from the sea by mid 1942, but alas British bureaucracy ensured that didn't happen.
 

lert

LE
To quote Harris (just to get another common stick in this conversation) what a rather childish delusion! By 1941 the Battle of the Atlantic was best described as "We're not going to loose". Start of 1942, the murdering of the U-boats began. It is a great scandal that we should have swept the U-boats from the sea by mid 1942, but alas British bureaucracy ensured that didn't happen.
Er, I think the beginning of 42 was very much the second happy time! British bureaucracy be damned, it was the opening of the Eastern seaboard of the US that facilitated that.
 

WALT

War Hero
There's one of those time lapse animations out there showing a world map of which countries were exploding bombs willy nilly and when.

Was I the only one who inwardly cheered when the Union Flag turned up? And thought "boo" when the Tricolour did?

Interestingly, according to that animation we are the only country to have successfully nuked the US.
 

lert

LE
Surely, bombing as an act of retribution would have been half a dozen air bursts over Tokyo?
I also take issue with the assumption that one or two people were responsible for their treatment of PoW and prisoners in general. First hand accounts demonstrate that their hatred of the none Jap went from Pte Blogs Sushi to the highest in command. You can't change that with a few token hangings and hope they'll change.
I'd have shed no tears over a Tokyo solution.
No that's not really my point. I was rather more aiming at the argument that says the Japs got what they deserved because x, y or z. It's rampant whataboutery.
 
To quote Harris (just to get another common stick in this conversation) what a rather childish delusion! By 1941 the Battle of the Atlantic was best described as "We're not going to loose". Start of 1942, the murdering of the U-boats began. It is a great scandal that we should have swept the U-boats from the sea by mid 1942, but alas British bureaucracy ensured that didn't happen.
Weren't we a bit busy and on our own at the time?
 
No that's not really my point. I was rather more aiming at the argument that says the Japs got what they deserved because x, y or z. It's rampant whataboutery.
That's not really my point either.
Accusations now that the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an act of retribution are bollocks. My premise being that if we wanted to do that, we, the allies, would have nuked Tokyo, which would be fine and dandy from where I am sitting.
 

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