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Hiroshima Day

Paul Fussell, later a well-known professor of English and literary historian, was (as you can read in the article above) wounded while serving as a rifle platoon commander in France in 1945.

Why is it that historians like Paul Fussell feel the need to distort the facts about the atomic bomb?

From your quote he states;
<<During the time between the dropping of the Nagasaki bomb on August 9 and the actual surrender on the fifteenth, the war pursued its accustomed course: on the twelfth of August eight captured American fliers were executed (heads chopped off); the fifty-first United States submarine, Bonefish, was sunk (all aboard drowned); the destroyer Callaghan went down, the seventieth to be sunk, and the Destroyer Escort Underhill was lost. That’s a bit of what happened in six days of the two or three weeks posited by Galbraith. What did he do in the war? He worked in the Office of Price Administration in Washington. I don’t demand that he experience having his ass shot off. I merely note that he didn’t.>>

The actual dates of the sinkings are as follows
USS Bonefish Sunk 18th June
USS Underhill Sunk 24th July
USS Indianapolis Sunk 30th July
USS Callaghan Sunk 29 July

Fussell cannot be ignorant about the dates of these sinkings, they are a matter of record. Yes for his own purposes he chooses to make the reader believe they occurred between 9th and 15th of August.
 
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I am truly thankful for Sunshine (Bucket of) Qty x1, for otherwise I doubt myself and my brother would have existed and lived full and productive lives. I would've rated my ol' feller's chances of surviving an invasion of the Japanese home islands as less than zero. So...

20200806_123805.jpg
 
Nuclear Weapons

15 Bombs to support the initial invasion in November 1945, with a production rate of 7 per month another 28 could have been ready for Honshu in March 1946.
A previous poster has remarked that he wouldn't have fancied being in the leading landing craft during an invasion of the Japanese home islands.

It would have been even less to look forward to following the delivery of numerous atom bombs. Advancing into radioactive fall-out probably wouldn't be a good idea and considerably dodgier than encountering a 16 year old girl with a sharp stick.

In my own opinion, the two bombs achieved the aim of letting the Japanese (especially the public) know that they couldn't win but any more (other than perhaps one more) would just have been vindictive. Better, perhaps, to have then targeted the Emperor.
 

g4eddie

Old-Salt
GMF, who was on the frontlines in Burma, says pretty much the same - f*** 'em, they had it coming.
And, as he points out, he didn't want to cop a packet from the non-surrendering diehard who went all Banzai on his platoon.
Didn' t US plan on half a million casualties during an invasion of mainland Japan?
I heard, but could easily be wrong, the Yanks were planning on OVER 1 MILLION casualties to invade home islands......
 
Japan was a weird set up in that regard. I suspect that every Japanese person came under the military hierarchy to some degree.

I always thought that the whole reasoning behind why the Japanese treated western POW's so badly, or at least the reason given, seemed lacking in its detail. The Line of "The POW had surrendered which was against Japanese martial code."

It wasn't until doing some work of the Kwantung Army I got several pieces of other info and was able to come up with a much more satisfactory answer.

1: PoW's are, under Japanese law, Considered to be a 'rank' in the military structure. It's a rank, right at the bottom of the pile.
2: The Japanese Army was incredibly brutal, and full of bullying. This was a matter of course, and seen as normal. God help the private who defaulted on a task. The Army was also rigidly hierarchical. Thus shit rolled down hill, and you could only safely brutalise those lower down.
3: Now add in the opening idea that the PoW's had misbehaved, and you get a cascade of nastieness heading down hill. It's often been noted that the Korean's guards treated PoW's were worse than the Japanese. That's simply because of the above factors, and that they as Korean's are lower in the pecking order than Japanese, but their higher than PoW's.

Mix all that up and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there's no such thing as a 'Civilian' Japanese, but I bet they'd have been herded towards the beaches.



Gas would have been available down to battalion level. I always wondered what the purpose of these experiments were:

japanese military, and civilian, discipline was brutal.
beatings were the norm, even for schoolchildren, beatings so harsh, deaths were not uncommon.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved hundreds of thousands of lives at least. The cost in lives - Allied and Japanese - of an invasion would have been vast. After the war in Europe, the thought that the Allies would sacrifice more lives rather than use the power of the atomic bomb on the Japanese population is naive in the extreme. I for one would not have wanted to be on a Wave 1 Landing Craft heading for the shores of mainland Japan in 1945. We should all be grateful that Harry S Truman (a man who was not expecting to be President) had the courage to make the decision and to take on the historical burden of being the man who made that order.
A million Allied casualties was the estimate. Okinawa sharpened the thinking.

ETA beaten to it by @g4eddie
 
I am truly thankful for Sunshine (Bucket of) Qty x1, for otherwise I doubt myself and my brother would have existed and lived full and productive lives. I would've rated my ol' feller's chances of surviving an invasion of the Japanese home islands as less than zero. So...

View attachment 494960

indeed.

the briefings for the invasion talked of casualty rates of 100% in the initial waves.

and it would probably have been even worse than the American planners expected.
post war analysis showed the Japanese had guessed exactly were the American landings would be and were moving huge numbers of troops to meet them.
 
I thought the general thinking was the second bomb had the added bonus of showing the Ruskies that we could do it again should they be too ambitious in Europe.
 
Any way you cut it, the 2 atom bombs saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Allied (including the Soviets) and Japanese.
 
Polmars book Downfall.

the initial bombardment would have lasted months, and all weapons were in the mix, conventional, biological, chemical and nuclear.

the gas attacks on 50 cities were predicted at the time to kill 5 million in the initial attacks on D Day -15.

from Polmar.


CW weapons

Stockpiles 1945…
5,500,000 shells, 1,000,000+ bombs, 100,000+ spray tanks, 43,000 land mines

7,500 tons of gas bombs on Luzon, 16,000 on Okinawa, 8,500 tons afloat.

Plans to spray jap crops in 1946 with 2-4-D using 1,500 aircraft on 25 sorties… and destroy 60% of jap rice production

Napalm… 'many' millions of gallons available…

BW weapons

Anthrax plant with a capacity of filling 4lb bombs at the rate of 500,000 per month.

1,000,000 Anthrax bomblets availablle for use on Kyushu in November and 2 -3,000,000 Anthrax bomblets for Honshu in March 1946

Nuclear Weapons

15 Bombs to support the initial invasion in November 1945, with a production rate of 7 per month another 28 could have been ready for Honshu in March 1946.

Attack plans for Honshu May 1946…

For a period of 180 days the beachheads would be bombarded with air and naval units and JB-2's (V1's built in the US) and the beacheads to a distance of 5,000 yds inland sprayed with chemical defoliants.

216 specially designed T-92 240mm self propelled howitzers were to be landed in the initial assault to blast away defences with 360lb HE shells.

Aircraft available from late 1945…

@ 2,000 heavy bombers, B-29's and RAF Lancasters…
300-400 medium bombers, B-24's
MANY thousands of fighters and light bombers

Bomb loads to be dropped on tactical targets…

September 1945 100,000 tons
January 1946 170,000 tons
March 1946 220,000 tons

JB-2 flying bombs (German V1's built in the US)

Monthly production of 5,000 per month by fall 1945. General Arnold planned to bombard Japan with 500 JB-2 missiles per day by the start of 1946. Missiles to be ground launched and from specially modified LST and jeep carriers"
Bloody hell...

.. was prevented...
 

Yokel

LE
Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved hundreds of thousands of lives at least. The cost in lives - Allied and Japanese - of an invasion would have been vast. After the war in Europe, the thought that the Allies would sacrifice more lives rather than use the power of the atomic bomb on the Japanese population is naive in the extreme. I for one would not have wanted to be on a Wave 1 Landing Craft heading for the shores of mainland Japan in 1945. We should all be grateful that Harry S Truman (a man who was not expecting to be President) had the courage to make the decision and to take on the historical burden of being the man who made that order.

My late uncle was an RAF Flight Engineer in Coastal Command - Sutherlands. He told me that the troops earmarked for recapturing Singapore and the Malay peninsula were briefed by Lord Mountbatten and told to expect something like 60% casualties during the initial landings.

Then there would be deaths among the civilian population and the Japanese forces. Repeat for every bit of territory held by Nippon, right up to the home islands. Apart from the combat related deaths, the Imperial Japanese Forces were happy to allow the population to starve so that they could preserve their honour in a suicidal fight.

Most of the lives saved were civilians, Japanese and those in occupied lands.
 
I thought the general thinking was the second bomb had the added bonus of showing the Ruskies that we could do it again should they be too ambitious in Europe.

no, the first bomb was a crude one off gun type bomb that they knew would work, the Nagasaki plutonium bomb was much more powerful (and complex) and the one they had put into full scale production.
 
I am truly thankful for Sunshine (Bucket of) Qty x1, for otherwise I doubt myself and my brother would have existed and lived full and productive lives. I would've rated my ol' feller's chances of surviving an invasion of the Japanese home islands as less than zero. So...

View attachment 494960
Saw Enola Gay a few years back, in Washington.

Spooky to be this close...

1596716270238.png
 
Some of my mates were discussing that hentai cartoon thing by studio gibbly - Grave of the Fireflies. I haven't seen it but it's about some kids living in Japan in 45. My mates were saying how sad it was.

I dared to say the little bastards had it coming. Cue massive meltdown with everyone calling me insensitive.

It's strange how you always hear about the USA nuking Japan but no one ever talks about the Rape of Nanking or Unit 731. In my opinion two nukes wasn't enough. Can you imagine what the Japanese would have done if they had nukes?
 
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The Hiroshima Mazda vehicle factories provide a popular UK tourist destination especially the dedicated Roadster plant that has churned out over 32 years the "MX5", Japanese domestic version of "Eunos Roadster", and the North American badge-engineered version of our Mx5, the "Miata".

Over the decades, numerous couples & groups used to write up their conducted tours in the OC Forum but quite notably any start-up discussions regarding the destruction of both cities was regarded as bad form. Locals seem not to want to share opinions with anybody. They did pick up on a few "in house" jokes regarding headlamp deletion in Mk1 design process given they were deemed of no use since the whole car would glow "bright at night" anyway. There were plenty others, but just for them.

They will however point to now classic trams, of which there are around a half dozen or so still in service which were put back to work (!) 3/4 days after the bomb hit.
It's on my bucket list to go there in a few years...we'll see.

Footnote:
If you have around £25/30k going spare, Hiroshima old-school teams will nut & bolt your Mk1 to as new...or better at the factory. Wholly hand built.
1596718287331.png

1596718351448.png
 
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Anyone with the slightest sympathy would do well to read this first hand experience of Jack Edwards, who I had the pleasure to meet in the Tamar mess: 'Banzai you Bastards'
1596717739809.png


 
Polmars book Downfall.

the initial bombardment would have lasted months, and all weapons were in the mix, conventional, biological, chemical and nuclear.

the gas attacks on 50 cities were predicted at the time to kill 5 million in the initial attacks on D Day -15.

from Polmar.


CW weapons

Stockpiles 1945…
5,500,000 shells, 1,000,000+ bombs, 100,000+ spray tanks, 43,000 land mines

7,500 tons of gas bombs on Luzon, 16,000 on Okinawa, 8,500 tons afloat.

Plans to spray jap crops in 1946 with 2-4-D using 1,500 aircraft on 25 sorties… and destroy 60% of jap rice production

Napalm… 'many' millions of gallons available…

BW weapons

Anthrax plant with a capacity of filling 4lb bombs at the rate of 500,000 per month.

1,000,000 Anthrax bomblets availablle for use on Kyushu in November and 2 -3,000,000 Anthrax bomblets for Honshu in March 1946

Nuclear Weapons

15 Bombs to support the initial invasion in November 1945, with a production rate of 7 per month another 28 could have been ready for Honshu in March 1946.

Attack plans for Honshu May 1946…

For a period of 180 days the beachheads would be bombarded with air and naval units and JB-2's (V1's built in the US) and the beacheads to a distance of 5,000 yds inland sprayed with chemical defoliants.

216 specially designed T-92 240mm self propelled howitzers were to be landed in the initial assault to blast away defences with 360lb HE shells.

Aircraft available from late 1945…

@ 2,000 heavy bombers, B-29's and RAF Lancasters…
300-400 medium bombers, B-24's
MANY thousands of fighters and light bombers

Bomb loads to be dropped on tactical targets…

September 1945 100,000 tons
January 1946 170,000 tons
March 1946 220,000 tons

JB-2 flying bombs (German V1's built in the US)

Monthly production of 5,000 per month by fall 1945. General Arnold planned to bombard Japan with 500 JB-2 missiles per day by the start of 1946. Missiles to be ground launched and from specially modified LST and jeep carriers"
Jesus! Would there have been any merit in invading after all that? Sod occupying an Anthrax soiled graveyard. They got off lightly with hindsight.
 

Mufulira

War Hero
I'm surprised that we haven't had the usual 'The peace loving Japanese were just sitting there minding their own business when those war-mongering Americans came and dropped Atom bombs on them' down here that we usually get at this time of year from Brighton & Hove Rent-a-Cause.
You must have been listening to Canuck CBC this morning --- "The Murkans dropped a big on on Hiroshima all those years ago.".... never minding the Canadians who wound up As POW's as Hong Kong fell and scant sympathy displayed.
 

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