Army Rumour Service

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Hiroshima Day

nanayon

Clanker
I simply don't follow that. It seems to me that dismantling the Japanese empire actually had a stabilising effect on the region.

Well the Korean War is called the forgotten war for a reason.

The communists victory in China was one of the greatest blunders in modern times. Even if the Japanese had to lose their holdings in mainland China or Manchuria, keeping Imperial Japanese forces under the command of CKS would still have prevented the communist takeover. So then maybe let Japan keep Formosa in exchange. All hypothitical. But I really don't see it stabalizing.
 

endure

GCM
Thought not, if you had you'd know Our chief weapon is sarcasm...sarcasm and fear...fear and sarcasm.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency..


:clap:
 

anglo

LE
Well the Korean War is called the forgotten war for a reason.

The communists victory in China was one of the greatest blunders in modern times. Even if the Japanese had to lose their holdings in mainland China or Manchuria, keeping Imperial Japanese forces under the command of CKS would still have prevented the communist takeover. So then maybe let Japan keep Formosa in exchange. All hypothitical. But I really don't see it stabalizing.
What about this, what about that, Your ramblings have nothing to do with this thread
What as the above post got to do with bombing Japan, nothing
 

nanayon

Clanker
Why? Allowing conditional surrender had been seen to lead to nations deciding they hadn't really been beaten and deciding to give it another go.

I think the Germany analogy gets over played.

By saying "another go" is to imply that the US had done nothing to provoke Japan with lines of credit to CKS, the relocation of the Pacific main fleet from the west coast to Hawaii, the oil embargo, and unwillingness to have FDR meet Konoye. Even if Japan decided to yield to US demand to leave China, that would be a major project after Japan had spent much treasure and blood and just got the Wang regime established. If the FDR administration was sincere, then they should have allowed a meeting to talk about Japanese withdrawal time table and phases and at what point could it be expected for the oil embargo to be removed. But nothing like that has been expressed from the US side. Instead the US had already started gearing up for war in the Pacific with things like the formation of the AVG. The US knew the Philippines was gonna get hit. They just assumed PH was not.
 

Wooden Wonder

War Hero
The report on BBC News from Japan at lunchtime was interesting - ‘extreme right-wing elements’ protesting and paying their respects at shrines honouring war criminals, denying the atrocities committed by Japan before and during WW2. I can’t find a link on the BBC website.
 
I think the Germany analogy gets over played.

I'm sure you do, but you seem somewhat invested in a particular line of reasoning.

By saying "another go" is to imply that the US had done nothing to provoke Japan with lines of credit to CKS, the relocation of the Pacific main fleet from the west coast to Hawaii, the oil embargo, and unwillingness to have FDR meet Konoye. Even if Japan decided to yield to US demand to leave China, that would be a major project after Japan had spent much treasure and blood and just got the Wang regime established. If the FDR administration was sincere, then they should have allowed a meeting to talk about Japanese withdrawal time table and phases and at what point could it be expected for the oil embargo to be removed. But nothing like that has been expressed from the US side. Instead the US had already started gearing up for war in the Pacific with things like the formation of the AVG. The US knew the Philippines was gonna get hit. They just assumed PH was not.

Irrelevant to the matter at hand - that a defeated nation should surrender unconditionally. No ifs, no buts. Japan was beaten, but many of the Japanese were not ready (or willing) to accept it. A conditional surrender would very likely have led to units fighting on and more loss of life.
 
Loath to the Japanese was FDR propaganda.

It may have ended up that way and yes, I do know about the various psychological discussions related to in groups, out groups and dehumanisation.

It started because the Japanese behaved contrary to accepted norms at the surrender phase and after combat and specifically towards civilians from the perspective of my relatives.

After that, the Japanese were fair game.

As I have said , I look at this from the perspective of people who were there at the start of it, The Japanese code was different and abominable.

Please also remember that the impact of propaganda would have been minimal at the start. Think 19 year old soldier who had never seen a plane and who's only interests were walking his dog and poaching.* Experience of the 19 year old trumped propaganda. We had the same sort of propaganda against the Germans but this particular chap respected them. They took prisoners, collected wounded and on the Western front at least, rarely behaved like beasts.

I suspect your revisionist perspective will claim the day as they are nearly all dead now and talking heads will spout rubbish in the mainstream media and people who don't have a personal connection with the past will believe it.

However, it is ingrained enough in the UK cultural memory that the truth will always out eventually. God knows what the Chinese store in their minds.

*Whilst poaching is a criminal activity, it provided his family with food at a time when welfare provision in UK was somewhat thin.
 
Well, I would hold no complaint for any Chinese ethnicity to hold that sort of attitude. They were the ones that suffered the most harm in highest degree of fault on the Japanese. But from westerners like the US or UK? No, enough time has passed for emotions to calm down and for the full context of the situation to be learned. The population of the US did not live in the western side of the Asia Pacific. Yet the US step by step put its interest behind the Nationalists Chinese with lines of credit to keep the China Kai-shek faction going while at the same time taking harder and harder positions towards Japan. I think real serious consideration is entirely ignored in the years before the attack on Pearl Harbor and that people just assume that Japan did the same thing that Germany did with its blitz on Poland. In addition to the previously pointed out weak legs of "Japanese aggression" with going into Manchuria ( https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/hiroshima-day.301190/post-10194385 ) the bad reputation of Japanese conduct in China is often exaggerated and whats more, the whole situation is not made known as common knowledge. Has anyone here heard of Wang Jingwei? Back in the 1920s when the Nationalist Chinese were led by Sun Yat-sen, he was possibly the closest person to Sun. When Sun died, there was a power struggle as to who would take control. Being that Chiang was more of a military man, he seized top control, so than Wang remained a rival of Chiang. Although both of them would still be anti-communist after getting to know the Chinese Communists a little bit when they were incorporated into the nationalists Chinese faction as part of condition on Sun in order to get Soviet aid. So anyway, with Chiang in charge, the Nationalists carried out the campaigns against the communists, very bloody campaigns, the commies make their escape in 1935 and do the long March, finish up with in by mid 1936 and one of Chiang general made a secret pact with the Chinese communists and so betrayed Chaing in Dec 1936, kidnapped him, brought him to the Chinese communists, and forced him to change policy towards Japan and stop hunting CHinese communists and to declare a united front against Japan. This was December 1936. There Second Sino-Japanese war did not start yet. And yet, the Chinese side has now resolved itself to fight a massive war against Japan. This was called the Xi'an incident. It is a massive point about how the Second Sino-Japanese war got started that never sees the light of day in common discourse. But anyway, back to Wang Jingwei, so things heat up in the summer of 1937, Battle of Shanghai starts with Chinese failing in their effort in trying to push the Japanese settlement in the international zone entirely off the land, which leads to the capture of Nanking, and then further Japanese expansion. All the while, Chiang Kai-shek refusing to surrender. Wang Jingwei wanted Chaing to stop the fighting but he was having it. The Japanese offer Wang Jingwei the top position to control the Chinese areas in the Japanese controlled areas, and Wang accepted by the end of 1938. To that leads to the establishment of the Wang regime with a whole host of its collaborators and even armed forces for the Wang regime trained by Japanese. So here's the question.. if the Japanese were really that bad, then how is that a whole Chinese regime was established in the Japanese areas? How was that they even would be given their own military force? Even towards the end of the war, they did not mutiny when maybe they would have had a chance. You say that even if Iris Chiang's book was only 25% accurate, then why is the impression built up in the book still be used to paint the everyday circumstances in Japanese controlled areas? By the way, when the war went to full swing from 1937 and onwards, the Chinese Communists that pressured CKS in kidnapped conditions to form the second united front fell into the back drop leaving the Nationalists Chinese in the brunt of the fighting, gathering strength and recruitment for whenever the civil war would continue. And then on the other side.. was Chinag Kai-shek some sort of honorable hero free from atrocity? Just like the Xi'an incident, the recruitment campaign for soldiers for the Nationalists Chinese was apparently a very brutal affair:


The military was formed through bloody and inhumane conscription campaigns. These are described by Rudolph Rummel as:


National Revolutionary Army - Wikipedia

If the Nationalists Chinese struggled to find able bodies in a country with a population of 500 million people, what does that say for the credibility of the Nationalists? It might make even signing up for the forces under the Wang regime look like a better deal for a 16 year old boy even.

So then one last point, what did we actually get in our real historical timeline? We got the defeat of the nationalist Chinese in the resumed Chinese Civil War immediately following WW2 and the victory of the communists, whose take over apparently killed more Chinese during peacetime than the war time by the Japanese. So that, plus the cutting in half of Korea with its Korean War and South Korean dictatorship for decades and a DPRK that makes colonial Korea look good. And for Taiwan, run away Chinag Kai-shek on Taiwan maintained a dictatorship until his death and Taiwan remained a dictatorship until the 1990s. This was no a situation equivalent to the liberation of western Europe from Nazi control. The loss of all of China to the communists, the situation with Korea, the fall of Taiwan to CKS dictatorship, Tibet losing its Independence and being forced back under China control in 1950, the gushing out of communis spewing all across South East Asia, all measure as negative consequences to the unconditional surrender of Japan and its complete break up of its empire, giving communism a smorgasboard delivered on a silver platter. To celebrate VJ day while turning a blind eye to all these stunning and shameful.

I would submit the what-if for historical exploration, what if US decided to not send Chaing Kai-shek lines of credit starting in 1938? http://www.nids.mod.go.jp/publication/senshi/pdf/201303/09.pdf
The nationalists Chinese were apparently on its last legs by 1939 and that war may have just ended in 1940. SO it would be a Wang regime on one side, and fragmented Chinese warlords and communist factions of the other side. Mao was certainly not going to take up principles that come with democracy. Chiang Kai-shek for his whole time in Taiwan certainly showed no signs of democracy. Imperial Japan technically was democratic. They formed single party rule in 1940, but maybe if an end was in sight with the war on the mainland China, measures towards stiffer military control may not have happened. FDR on the other hand was quite anti-Japanese and had already consider internment camps for Japanese (albiet on Hawaii) in mid 1936. Almost a whole year before the Second Sino-Japanese war even got started and FDR was already thinking about internment camps.
FDR Hawaii Memo | Densho Encyclopedia


You do know that if you occasionally hit 'Enter', then your work becomes split into these handy chunks called 'paragraphs'?
 
I'm sure you do, but you seem somewhat invested in a particular line of reasoning.

Irrelevant to the matter at hand - that a defeated nation should surrender unconditionally. No ifs, no buts. Japan was beaten, but many of the Japanese were not ready (or willing) to accept it. A conditional surrender would very likely have led to units fighting on and more loss of life.

If our newly resident Japanese atrocity defender wants to undertake a thought experiment he might like to think about what Japan would have been like if we had treated the Japanese people the way they treated the civilian populations of SE Asia and the Allied prisoners.

It wouldn't be the country it is today if we had not treated them with the honour and decency we did. Not their weird sense of medieval knightly honour but the real one.
 
Last edited:

endure

GCM
"Look mate, I'm not arguing all day about this, it was murder and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a psychopath who loves f**king war".
Your mate’s a fecking idiot. I know that there’s some revisionist bullshit which states that it was Russian activity which really brought the Japanese to their knees, but bullshit is what that is. The Japanese were talking up the slaughter that would be visited upon any invader of the Japanese home islands and there was no reason to doubt that intent.
On the other hand they didn’t have any answer or defence to the prospect of their country, history and culture being razed to the ground- city by city- by such horrifying weapons.
The most grateful people for the dropping of the bombs were the guys who otherwise faced fighting and dying on Japanese soil. Most of us can identify with that.
 
Well of course I mean no disrespect to relatives that had once served. But I can't let that interfere with my ideas and debate.

Loath to the Japanese was FDR propaganda. It was a regional matter in Asia. A shithole if even. But the US got itself involved when it wasn't even a member of the league of nations. When the Japanese invaded Manchuria. The FDR administration used that point of time to give official recognition to the Soviet Union. So let's not pretend the hypocrisy did not exist.
Nobody was objecting to Japan being in the colonial empire game. Everybody else who was capable of doing so was also at it at the time.

What Japan was particularly condemned for was their abominable treatment of their colonial subjects and their atrocious behaviour in their treatment of POWs and civilian prisoners. This is a past that all too many Japanese have not had the courage to face up to and why so many people in the rest of the world see the Japanese of that era as lacking in any sense of personal morals or honour.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
I refer the noble gentlmen assorted to Eugene Sledges autobiography.

when they heard the bombs had been dropped and the Japanese has jacked in, these hard as nails, battle hardened Marines cried.... as he put it, now we would live. They’d been told to expect 100% casualties in the forthcoming invasion.

check the potential casualties discussed for 'Operation Downfall':
Incidentally, the USA has now suffered more deaths from Covid-19 than the Japanese casualties caused by 'Little Boy'.


Sympathy in short supply Nanayon-San
 
I don't know.

When I listen to Shonen Knife I am hardly inclined to blame them for the sins of their great/grandfathers.

I agree that Japan never truly accounted for, nor accepted, its appalling war crimes. Neither did the Boxheads really.

A few thousand more war crime executions would have helped but we were so focused on post war reconciliation and reconstruction (physically and socially) I don't suppose we had the heart for it.
 

Latest Threads

Top