Army Rumour Service

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Hiroshima Day

syrup

LE
What's a poem written 50 odd years before hand got to do with VJ day? Best I can see is because it mentions Burma?
(Disclaimer: I've never been a fan of Kipling's work)


Got it here from the 70th VJ event.

It's supposed to be a soldier reminiscing about his time in India and Burma
Relevant I suppose to those who were out there at that time.

 

Boxer96

Old-Salt
If anyone is interested in the development of both the atomic and hydrogen bombs then 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb' and 'Dark Sun' by Richard Rhodes are well worth reading.

In 'The Making...' he describes not only the Manhattan Project but the life histories of all the major players like Fermi, Szilard etc. right from the original research done by the Curies, Bohr, Han and Meissner.

Highly recommended.
Agreed. I have them both. Although "Dark Sun" which describes the Hydrogen Bomb was not as good a read as 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb'.
 

Nemesis44UK

LE
Book Reviewer
Good post but you also missed out the final piece in "Three worst mistakes ever made" in

"If we invade the USSR the whole country will collapse within three months"

To be fair to the ol' sauerkraut muncher, the Reds didn't exactly cover themselves in glory when they went to war with the Finns.
 
Since those ones weren't conducted as a matter of national policy or on anywhere near the scale of Japan's atrocities, the answer is an unequivocal, 'Yes.'

In case it had escaped your notice, the Japanese Empire was really quite a nasty business in a astonishing variety of ways.

Some of us have relatives who suffered under the Japanese as civilians under occupation. They don't see the Japanese as the hard done by. To say they hated them would be an understatement.
Neither do they see them as accidental opportunists.
Still, they'll all be dead soon and there will be a whole generation of historians to rewrite the books based on the new truth.
Being a winner in a world war will then be odious.
 

Nemesis44UK

LE
Book Reviewer
Lastly, saying that still comes in recognizing the many atrocities still carried out by the Japanese. And while I do not express a regret for the demise of the Japanese empire, I think when all things are taking into consideration, celebrations of VJ Day come very cheaply these days. History is not learned. Also uncalled for "fook'em" etc. continues on even today.

Oh one last point, while I would call the atomic bombs US applied terms "war crimes",
I don't think there should be anything like an apology or anything like that. And yes of course, the various other bombings such as the fire bombing of Tokyo was worse than the Atomic bombs. So there is that degree of inflation just because it was an atomic bomb as opposed to some other type of conventional bomb.

Uncalled for? Are you sure?

The Japanese embarked on a systemic campaign of murder, rape and mutilation. No one was safe from it: Not the Allies, not POWs, not the Chinese, nor indeed, anyone who opposed them.

In "The Rape of Nanking," by Iris Chang, if even 25% of the information is to be believed, the Japanese Army's conduct was abhorrent. With dozens of other examples during the war including Unit 731, Burma, Bataan etc. that is all corroborating evidence that is damning of the Japanese.

To say that ""fook 'em" is uncalled for" is class one gaslighting. Japan's lack of remorse at the widespread practicing of the worst crimes known to man is vile.

You have not demonstrated even a modicum of objective thinking regarding the atomic bombs, or the fire bombing of Tokyo. A 21st century rationale has been applied liberally over a 20th century fight for survival. That is the problem with the young in this century. People are too far removed from the events to see things with even a sliver of common sense.

You cannot judge every historical event by today's standards.

It was the advent of "smart" bombing in the first Gulf War that brought the reality of a precision strike to fruition. The thought of only targeting "bad guys" and sparing civilians is a modern concept.

In my opinion, the viciousness and pure evil of the Japanese Empire deserved all it got. It is only a shame that it didn't happen earlier in the war.
 
The text said "capable of carrying its normal internal bomb load or bomb bay fuel tanks" (in addition to 2 Grand Slams). If it has the internal bomb load, there's no extra fuel to offset the payload overload.


'Capable of'…as in, it could, not it must.

Par example - the much derided B-17 and its 'puny' 4,000lb bomb load compared to the typical 10,000lb load of a Lancaster

Well, sort of, on shorter ≤400 miles bombing hops, using its wing racks, (Yes, the B-17 had wing racks too), it could tote up to 18,000lbs of good news.

Unknown.jpeg
 

syrup

LE
Well, was the US really any better?


I read somewhere that Hitler thought he would get away with the concertation camps because in the U.S in some states you could apply to have disabled mentally ill etc euthanised.
Also as we all know Britain used them in South Africa
Early on even under that Nazi's you needed a reason for someone to be euthanised and a doctor to recommend it then another to sign it off.
This was early on before they went full on tonto and started just killing everyone.
 

Bodenplatte

War Hero
It was the advent of "smart" bombing in the first Gulf War that brought the reality of a precision strike to fruition. The thought of only targeting "bad guys" and sparing civilians is a modern concept.

Prior to US involvement in WW2 the Army Air Corps believed that they could bomb with exceptional precision with the Norden bombsight and took the moral high ground vis a vis the RAF tactic of area bombing. "We can put a bomb in a pickle barrel from 30,000 feet" was the claim.

Whatever they could manage on a bomb range in Arizona, it didn't work out for them in the combat and weather conditions over NW Europe, though to ease American consciences aiming points continued to be expressed in terms of military/industrial targets rather than town centres.
 
Last edited:
Prior to US involvement in WW2 the Army Air Corps believed that they could bomb with exceptional precision with the Norden bombsight and took the moral high ground vis a vis the RAF tactic of area bombing. "We can put a bomb in a pickle barrel from 30,000 feet" was the claim.

It didn't work out for them in the combat and weather conditions over NW Europe, though to ease American consciences aiming points continued to be expressed in terms of military/industrial targets.


IIRC, the metric of the time was 1,000 bombs on a point target to have an expectation of at least one hitting it.
 

nanayon

Clanker
Uncalled for? Are you sure?

The Japanese embarked on a systemic campaign of murder, rape and mutilation. No one was safe from it: Not the Allies, not POWs, not the Chinese, nor indeed, anyone who opposed them.

In "The Rape of Nanking," by Iris Chang, if even 25% of the information is to be believed, the Japanese Army's conduct was abhorrent. With dozens of other examples during the war including Unit 731, Burma, Bataan etc. that is all corroborating evidence that is damning of the Japanese.

To say that ""fook 'em" is uncalled for" is class one gaslighting. Japan's lack of remorse at the widespread practicing of the worst crimes known to man is vile.

You have not demonstrated even a modicum of objective thinking regarding the atomic bombs, or the fire bombing of Tokyo. A 21st century rationale has been applied liberally over a 20th century fight for survival. That is the problem with the young in this century. People are too far removed from the events to see things with even a sliver of common sense.

You cannot judge every historical event by today's standards.

It was the advent of "smart" bombing in the first Gulf War that brought the reality of a precision strike to fruition. The thought of only targeting "bad guys" and sparing civilians is a modern concept.

In my opinion, the viciousness and pure evil of the Japanese Empire deserved all it got. It is only a shame that it didn't happen earlier in the war.

Well, I would hold no complaint for any Chinese ethnicity to hold that sort of attitude. They were the ones that suffered the most harm in highest degree of fault on the Japanese. But from westerners like the US or UK? No, enough time has passed for emotions to calm down and for the full context of the situation to be learned. The population of the US did not live in the western side of the Asia Pacific. Yet the US step by step put its interest behind the Nationalists Chinese with lines of credit to keep the China Kai-shek faction going while at the same time taking harder and harder positions towards Japan. I think real serious consideration is entirely ignored in the years before the attack on Pearl Harbor and that people just assume that Japan did the same thing that Germany did with its blitz on Poland. In addition to the previously pointed out weak legs of "Japanese aggression" with going into Manchuria ( https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/hiroshima-day.301190/post-10194385 ) the bad reputation of Japanese conduct in China is often exaggerated and whats more, the whole situation is not made known as common knowledge. Has anyone here heard of Wang Jingwei? Back in the 1920s when the Nationalist Chinese were led by Sun Yat-sen, he was possibly the closest person to Sun. When Sun died, there was a power struggle as to who would take control. Being that Chiang was more of a military man, he seized top control, so than Wang remained a rival of Chiang. Although both of them would still be anti-communist after getting to know the Chinese Communists a little bit when they were incorporated into the nationalists Chinese faction as part of condition on Sun in order to get Soviet aid. So anyway, with Chiang in charge, the Nationalists carried out the campaigns against the communists, very bloody campaigns, the commies make their escape in 1935 and do the long March, finish up with in by mid 1936 and one of Chiang general made a secret pact with the Chinese communists and so betrayed Chaing in Dec 1936, kidnapped him, brought him to the Chinese communists, and forced him to change policy towards Japan and stop hunting CHinese communists and to declare a united front against Japan. This was December 1936. There Second Sino-Japanese war did not start yet. And yet, the Chinese side has now resolved itself to fight a massive war against Japan. This was called the Xi'an incident. It is a massive point about how the Second Sino-Japanese war got started that never sees the light of day in common discourse. But anyway, back to Wang Jingwei, so things heat up in the summer of 1937, Battle of Shanghai starts with Chinese failing in their effort in trying to push the Japanese settlement in the international zone entirely off the land, which leads to the capture of Nanking, and then further Japanese expansion. All the while, Chiang Kai-shek refusing to surrender. Wang Jingwei wanted Chaing to stop the fighting but he was having it. The Japanese offer Wang Jingwei the top position to control the Chinese areas in the Japanese controlled areas, and Wang accepted by the end of 1938. To that leads to the establishment of the Wang regime with a whole host of its collaborators and even armed forces for the Wang regime trained by Japanese. So here's the question.. if the Japanese were really that bad, then how is that a whole Chinese regime was established in the Japanese areas? How was that they even would be given their own military force? Even towards the end of the war, they did not mutiny when maybe they would have had a chance. You say that even if Iris Chiang's book was only 25% accurate, then why is the impression built up in the book still be used to paint the everyday circumstances in Japanese controlled areas? By the way, when the war went to full swing from 1937 and onwards, the Chinese Communists that pressured CKS in kidnapped conditions to form the second united front fell into the back drop leaving the Nationalists Chinese in the brunt of the fighting, gathering strength and recruitment for whenever the civil war would continue. And then on the other side.. was Chinag Kai-shek some sort of honorable hero free from atrocity? Just like the Xi'an incident, the recruitment campaign for soldiers for the Nationalists Chinese was apparently a very brutal affair:


The military was formed through bloody and inhumane conscription campaigns. These are described by Rudolph Rummel as:

This was a deadly affair in which men were kidnapped for the army, rounded up indiscriminately by press-gangs or army units among those on the roads or in the towns and villages, or otherwise gathered together. Many men, some the very young and old, were killed resisting or trying to escape. Once collected, they would be roped or chained together and marched, with little food or water, long distances to camp. They often died or were killed along the way, sometimes less than 50 percent reaching camp alive. Then recruit camp was no better, with hospitals resembling Nazi concentration camps like Buchenwald.
National Revolutionary Army - Wikipedia

If the Nationalists Chinese struggled to find able bodies in a country with a population of 500 million people, what does that say for the credibility of the Nationalists? It might make even signing up for the forces under the Wang regime look like a better deal for a 16 year old boy even.

So then one last point, what did we actually get in our real historical timeline? We got the defeat of the nationalist Chinese in the resumed Chinese Civil War immediately following WW2 and the victory of the communists, whose take over apparently killed more Chinese during peacetime than the war time by the Japanese. So that, plus the cutting in half of Korea with its Korean War and South Korean dictatorship for decades and a DPRK that makes colonial Korea look good. And for Taiwan, run away Chinag Kai-shek on Taiwan maintained a dictatorship until his death and Taiwan remained a dictatorship until the 1990s. This was no a situation equivalent to the liberation of western Europe from Nazi control. The loss of all of China to the communists, the situation with Korea, the fall of Taiwan to CKS dictatorship, Tibet losing its Independence and being forced back under China control in 1950, the gushing out of communis spewing all across South East Asia, all measure as negative consequences to the unconditional surrender of Japan and its complete break up of its empire, giving communism a smorgasboard delivered on a silver platter. To celebrate VJ day while turning a blind eye to all these stunning and shameful.

I would submit the what-if for historical exploration, what if US decided to not send Chaing Kai-shek lines of credit starting in 1938? http://www.nids.mod.go.jp/publication/senshi/pdf/201303/09.pdf
The nationalists Chinese were apparently on its last legs by 1939 and that war may have just ended in 1940. SO it would be a Wang regime on one side, and fragmented Chinese warlords and communist factions of the other side. Mao was certainly not going to take up principles that come with democracy. Chiang Kai-shek for his whole time in Taiwan certainly showed no signs of democracy. Imperial Japan technically was democratic. They formed single party rule in 1940, but maybe if an end was in sight with the war on the mainland China, measures towards stiffer military control may not have happened. FDR on the other hand was quite anti-Japanese and had already consider internment camps for Japanese (albiet on Hawaii) in mid 1936. Almost a whole year before the Second Sino-Japanese war even got started and FDR was already thinking about internment camps.
FDR Hawaii Memo | Densho Encyclopedia
 
Imperial Japan technically was democratic.
So was the 3rd reich, technically....

as for Japan, democratic unless you disagreed with the Army , then you typically were assassinated like Saitō Makoto, Takahashi Korekiyo, and others

. IIRC wasn't Yamamoto sent to the fleet to protect him from Army assassins?

FDR on the other hand was quite anti-Japanese and had already consider internment camps for Japanese (albiet on Hawaii) in mid 1936. Almost a whole year before the Second Sino-Japanese war even got started and FDR was already thinking about internment camps.
FDR Hawaii Memo | Densho Encyclopedia
Except that proposed internment was like what was done to German and Italians in 42- troublemakers not the general population of Nisei/Issei.

In fact a little known fact is not all Nisei/Issei were interned. Only hawaiian and west coast, eastern seaboard and midwest were unaffected


Well, was the US really any better?
could you point out where FDR condoned or ordered those experiments like Hirohito did?
 
Last edited:

nanayon

Clanker
So was the 3rd reich, technically....

as for Japan, democratic unless you disagreed with the Army , then you typically were assassinated like Saitō Makoto, Takahashi Korekiyo, and others

. IIRC wasn't Yamamoto sent to the fleet to protect him from Army assassins?


Except that proposed internment was like what was done to German and Italians in 42- troublemakers not the general population of Nisei/Issei.

In fact a little known fact is not all Nisei/Issei were interned. Only hawaiian and west coast, eastern seaboard and midwest were unaffected


could you point out where FDR condoned or ordered those experiments like Hirohito did?

To your first point, well the 3rd reich was built on the racists elements on Jews. Where as in Japan's case, many jews were saved and were provided safe haven, even turning down Nazi demands to hand them over.
Chiune Sugihara - Wikipedia
Which resulted in the only European Yeshiva to survive the holocaust.
Mir Yeshiva (Belarus) - Wikipedia

Imperial Japan was not a role model democracy. Particularly so when stuck in a drawn out war being prolonged by outside aid. But it was quite the role model during the Taisho era. But that was when the Japanese government tried to fit in with the other major powers but only to have to always curtail its interest in its region. The 1920s saw the end of the Japan-Great Britain alliance due to pressure from the US. It say Japan respecting the 9 power treaty while the Soviet Union was not even a member of the treaty setting up a puppet regime in Mongolia by 1925 and sending inserting a communists faction into the main Chinese political entity. And it saw the Taisho government heeding to US pressure on naval treaties that gave the US (a continental country full of metal and energy resources) a naval advantage over Japan (an island nation that lacks such natural resources). Maybe if the US had not pressured for an advantage on the Taisho government and pressuring the commonwealth and Great Britain to end the Japan-Great Britain alliance, maybe the policies of the Taisho government would have been more favorable by the Japanese military.

The Japanese population in the US mainland was about 126,000 in 1940
LibGuides: Japanese Americans in World War II: Historical Background.
So with about 110,000-120,00 being interned, that means nearly the whole population.

As for your last point, does it really matter? In some way, it could be worse if the top leader is not informed about human experimentation to begin with. With a top leader being informed, it provides the option to stop it at the top. Without it, it just goes as it does, with full disclosure unlikely to ever happen.
 
In fact a little known fact is not all Nisei/Issei were interned. Only hawaiian and west coast

Not the complete case,
One of the more disreputable sides of interment was that the US 'encouraged' a dozen Latin-American countries to intern their Japanese residents and deport them to the United States

They were involuntarily brought to American ports by US shipping only to be declared illegal immigrants and interned in the same camps as the Japanese Americans.

The idea was that these Japanese Latin Americans could be used in prisoner exchanges and about 800 were; with another 1000 deported to Japan at the end of the war.

The US internment of Japanese Latin Americans is well documented in books and web-sites, here is one example, from the BBC
Link: Interment of Latin Americans in the US
 
My late uncle was an RAF Flight Engineer in Coastal Command - Sutherlands. He told me that the troops earmarked for recapturing Singapore and the Malay peninsula were briefed by Lord Mountbatten and told to expect something like 60% casualties during the initial landings.

Then there would be deaths among the civilian population and the Japanese forces. Repeat for every bit of territory held by Nippon, right up to the home islands. Apart from the combat related deaths, the Imperial Japanese Forces were happy to allow the population to starve so that they could preserve their honour in a suicidal fight.

Most of the lives saved were civilians, Japanese and those in occupied lands.

One of my uncles was in that invasion force heading for the Malay peninsular when Boom Boom and the Japs surrendered.
When they landed , the Japanese were waiting for them, in good order, and put down their weapons. ( My Uncle had two katana beside the fireplace that had been surrendered to him).

Within a few days, he had to rearm these very same soldiers to act as 'Police' as law and order had completely broken down. He said they followed orders to the letter and were very effective.
 

syrup

LE
Some of us have relatives who suffered under the Japanese as civilians under occupation. They don't see the Japanese as the hard done by. To say they hated them would be an understatement.
Neither do they see them as accidental opportunists.
Still, they'll all be dead soon and there will be a whole generation of historians to rewrite the books based on the new truth.
Being a winner in a world war will then be odious.


When I was a boy in Glasgow we lived in a tenement
On the ground floor was Mr Sharp his daughter was my mums best friend.
Mr Sharp had been a FEPOW.
Mum and subsequently my and my brother were told that you never refused food from Mr Sharp.
The daughter would often be fed by my grandparents because tea might be a slice of bread if he was dishing it up (her mum obviously fed her more)
I remember him taking Mars Bars and Oranges and slicing them wafer thin and handing out a slice to each of us.
He would walk everywhere you only went on a walk with him once saw him when he was about 80 still walking away round Glasgow but he would put some miles in.
Never got over it and my great uncle who was out there, is still in Changi never made it back.
 
the bad reputation of Japanese conduct in China is often exaggerated

No, it isn’t. They really were every bit as bad as they’re made out, if not more so.

Has anyone here heard of Wang Jingwei? Back in the 1920s when the Nationalist Chinese were led by Sun Yat-sen, he was possibly the closest person to Sun. When Sun died, there was a power struggle as to who would take control. Being that Chiang was more of a military man, he seized top control, so than Wang remained a rival of Chiang.

Wang Jingwei’s faction was one reason that the Nationalists were not able to form a consensus in favour of fighting repeated Japanese encroachments before 1937. He was in favour of an armistice while China built up its strength in order to resist more effectively, and was in direct opposition to those who believed resistance had to start before there was no China left to resist from.

And yet, the Chinese side has now resolved itself to fight a massive war against Japan. This was called the Xi'an incident. It is a massive point about how the Second Sino-Japanese war got started that never sees the light of day in common discourse.

I’ll wager repeated Japanese expansions and annexations, coupled with the intense brutality of the occupation, had just a teensy bit to do with the Chinese side resolving to resist Japan.

To that leads to the establishment of the Wang regime with a whole host of its collaborators and even armed forces for the Wang regime trained by Japanese. So here's the question.. if the Japanese were really that bad, then how is that a whole Chinese regime was established in the Japanese areas?

By force of Japanese arms and entirely under the control of Japanese ‘advisors’. Here’s one for you: if the Japanese really weren’t that bad, how is it that they didn’t allow the Reformed Government to have its own army or foreign policy under the Treaty Concerning Basic Relations (1940)?

How was that they even would be given their own military force? Even towards the end of the war, they did not mutiny when maybe they would have had a chance.

They weren’t initially (see above) and when they did they were prevented from having enough heavy weapons to form more than an infantry force. They mutinied repeatedly and part of the reason Wang’s regime collapsed immediately on the Japanese defeat was the mass defection of his troops.

And then on the other side.. was Chinag Kai-shek some sort of honorable hero free from atrocity? Just like the Xi'an incident, the recruitment campaign for soldiers for the Nationalists Chinese was apparently a very brutal affair:

Well, I guess that excuses 50-odd years of invasion, occupation and predation by the Japanese…

If the Nationalists Chinese struggled to find able bodies in a country with a population of 500 million people, what does that say for the credibility of the Nationalists? It might make even signing up for the forces under the Wang regime look like a better deal for a 16 year old boy even.

Not being required to immediately suffer the attentions of the IJA may have made it an appealing prospect to a 16-year old boy, but reality of life in the RG Army encouraged high levels of desertion.

all measure as negative consequences to the unconditional surrender of Japan and its complete break up of its empire, giving communism a smorgasboard delivered on a silver platter.

Wait, so we should just have let Japan continue its rampage through Asia on the grounds that since they’d smashed the pre-existing government structures in conquered territories there would be a power vacuum?

To celebrate VJ day while turning a blind eye to all these stunning and shameful.

Actually, no. To celebrate defeating a brutal and voracious enemy is something we should be proud of and ought to celebrate. There’s a reason why so many countries have their own versions of VJ Day and it isn’t because they long for the halcyon days of rule from Tokyo.

Chiang Kai-shek for his whole time in Taiwan certainly showed no signs of democracy.

The very first post-war elections in the Republic of China were held in Taiwan in 1947 and local non-KMT candidates largely swept the board. Chiang believed the levels of education and civic engagement were higher on the island, and that the harsh anti-Communist measures enacted by Japan throughout its empire meant Taiwan was largely free from Communist infiltration.

Imperial Japan technically was democratic. They formed single party rule in 1940, but maybe if an end was in sight with the war on the mainland China, measures towards stiffer military control may not have happened.

The implication that we should have tolerated Imperial Japan’s shenanigans on the grounds that it might have encouraged them to be less of a bunch of shits isn’t really one I’d agree with.
 
The captions to the photos in post #304 indicate that the Grand Slams were carried on external bomb racks (also shown in the photos). The captions also indicate that while the Grand Slams were carried externally, the normal internal bomb load could also be carried. As I make it out, that's 3x its maximum short-distance, low-altitude payload. And that's just allowing for weight - drag and turbulence would also be factors that would have an adverse effect on performance and range.

I wouldn't be greatly surprised if it ran out of fuel and burnt out its engines before it managed to get airborne. Or somebody is exaggerating its payload.

Same way you can load modern airliners with much more than they're certified to carry at MAUW. They'll fly OK, just not with one engine inoperative.
 
Got it here from the 70th VJ event.

It's supposed to be a soldier reminiscing about his time in India and Burma
Relevant I suppose to those who were out there at that time.


The desperate PC search for something about which to be offended is becoming quite childish and attention seeking. We can only hope Mr White shits his kecks in an epically explosive and spectacular fashion on camera to assuage his lust for that attention.
 

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top