Hiroshima Day

ROMFT

Old-Salt
That's quite an LGBTQ+ friendly image. Perhaps if the B29 had been painted rainbow colour it wouldn't have failed the right-side-of-history test.
Actually I'm quite disappointed by the lack of uniform eh... Uniformity.
Ok, Septic Crabs, but really chaps, do try and look as if you are in a military service & not a prototype Village People.
 

diverman

LE
Book Reviewer
The BBC was at it again on the 9am news covering the anniversary of Nagasaki and Ben Brown interviewing a bright eyed female academic from Nagasaki University.
First question from Ben Brown: 'And how much hatred do the Japanese have for the Americans'? She'd obviously not been told about the Rape of Nanking, the Burma-Siam railway etc. If I was Japanese, I would be more concerned about the residual hatred held for the Japanese by the Chinese, the Koreans, the Philipinos, not to mention anyone else in the area with a well honed grudge.
And the Chinese one day may repay Japan in spades and not just two nuclear weapons but far more. The USA et al will sit aside and watch.
 
Whilst we are on the subject of the filthy vermin called the Japs, "World at War" is on the Yesterday channel. I've just watched their introduction into the war with some good footage of Pearl Harbour, then through to the fall of Singers.

If you'd have been in Percivals' shoes, would you have surrendered to the Nips?
Singapore was done for as soon as Pearl Harbour went.
The yanks had the only fleet capable of taking on the IJN at that point in time and place. We were tied up in the Atlantic and Med. Even then, if they had got wind of PH and avoided it, they would still have the Phillipines to look after. I reckon they'd have given a very good account of themselves mind and gone on to relieve Singapore.

When I look back, had we nipped the axis expansion in the bud, we'd have still been left with a bunch of militaristic governments in power in Japan and Germany and the buggers would now have ICBMs. It's like we had to go medieval to save the world from certain destruction later.
 
dear BBC:

731 deaths vastly under reported in that article.

Documented set piece medical vivisections were over 10,000. Hirohito took a great interest in these and transcripts of the ‘experiments’ were sent regularly to the Palace for his perusal.

killings at the facilities in the line of medical and military experimentation, in the low hundreds of thousands. Army wants a new flamethrower tested. Tie 100 POWs to stakes on a test field and conduct the trials.

killings of a Chinese civilians in ‘field trials‘ of biological and chemical warfare agents, in the low hundreds of thousands. Need to test a new virus bomb, pick a chinese village and bomb it.
 
Wainwright was shat on from a great height, his Commander, MacArthur, cleared off with the comment 'I shall return' which he did, two years later. Wainwright was left to manage the surrender to the Japanese.
Under orders from FDR to leave...

MacArthur when you look at his history many times disregarded enemy fire or the presence of the enemy.

There is one incident during the battle of Manila when he stepped onto a balcony to be faced with a IJN machinegun crew across the way looking at him and they didnt fire. On one landing when told Japanese were at the far end of the runway started walking towards them

In WW1 he and Col. Patton met under artillery fire and neither would take cover

Possibly had a death wish or need to prove he was not a coward
 
731 deaths vastly under reported in that article.

Documented set piece medical vivisections were over 10,000. Hirohito took a great interest in these and transcripts of the ‘experiments’ were sent regularly to the Palace for his perusal.

killings at the facilities in the line of medical and military experimentation, in the low hundreds of thousands. Army wants a new flamethrower tested. Tie 100 POWs to stakes on a test field and conduct the trials.

killings of a Chinese civilians in ‘field trials‘ of biological and chemical warfare agents, in the low hundreds of thousands. Need to test a new virus bomb, pick a chinese village and bomb it.
Extension of an old Samurai custom....

 
Under orders from FDR to leave...

MacArthur when you look at his history many times disregarded enemy fire or the presence of the enemy.

There is one incident during the battle of Manila when he stepped onto a balcony to be faced with a IJN machinegun crew across the way looking at him and they didnt fire. On one landing when told Japanese were at the far end of the runway started walking towards them

In WW1 he and Col. Patton met under artillery fire and neither would take cover

Possibly had a death wish or need to prove he was not a coward

A truly formidable intellect, huge personal bravery, suffered no fools, didn't kiss ass.
Love him or loathe him, he was a great General, but like so many great Generals, a flawed genius, truly an American Cesar.
But his greatest achievement was to win the peace in Japan.
 

anglo

LE
A truly formidable intellect, huge personal bravery, suffered no fools, didn't kiss ass.
Love him or loathe him, he was a great General, but like so many great Generals, a flawed genius, truly an American Cesar.
But his greatest achievement was to win the peace in Japan.
Kin hell, And I thought it was two buckets of instant sunshine, every day a ......
 
Under orders from FDR to leave...

MacArthur when you look at his history many times disregarded enemy fire or the presence of the enemy.

There is one incident during the battle of Manila when he stepped onto a balcony to be faced with a IJN machinegun crew across the way looking at him and they didnt fire. On one landing when told Japanese were at the far end of the runway started walking towards them

In WW1 he and Col. Patton met under artillery fire and neither would take cover

Possibly had a death wish or need to prove he was not a coward
His departure must have done wonders for the beleaguered men and women just hanging on with the knowledge that the only outcome could well be 'a second Alamo'. The US and Philippine garrison held out as best they could against the odds and held the Japanese as long as possible to buy time.
 
Thays exactly what I was referring to. That and half the crew wearing hotpants!
It was said..allegedly.... their favoured Mess desert was:.
 
His departure must have done wonders for the beleaguered men and women just hanging on with the knowledge that the only outcome could well be 'a second Alamo'. The US and Philippine garrison held out as best they could against the odds and held the Japanese as long as possible to buy time.
The 2nd Alamo can be squarely blamed on FDR sending NO reinforcements to the PI, LL took a great deal of US war material which could have reinforced USAFFE and sent it to the UK and USSR. The entire defense of the islands was also based upon holding out for 6 months until the US Pacific Fleet arrived, well we all know what happened to that

the only supplies getting in came by infrequent submarine visits and some very small coastal vessels

add to that- pre Pearl Harbor
Chronic shortages of small arms ammo and even steel helmets
Every infantry company had 2X60mm Mortars yet no 60mm bombs ever sent to the Philippines
81mm Mortars were standard bn weapons but a severe shortage meant 76mm stokes bombs used which resulted in drop shorts
75mm 1897 shells which were condemned for the artillery
3inch AA shells with condemned fuses sent
US M1917 Rifles with bad extractors sent to arm the Philippine army in the late 30's USAFFE Ordnance had to make new extractors or re heat treat old ones.

The entire time He had his QM and Ordnance staff sending telegrams asking for more and better gear, sending tech reports on weapons in use by them and the japanese (An example was the Garands would gall in heavy rain due to oil washing off the bolt lugs, Stateside lubriplate grease rapidly became the fix).

Now when the Army retreated into Bataan, refugees were allowed in, this immediately put the US forces on 1/2 rations as the refugees had to be fed. Millions of tons of rice which was supposed to be evacuated to Bataan for the garrison was left to feed Manila

Thousands of now unnecessary Sailors and Airmen pressed into service as infantry had to be armed, trained and equipped and Fed

The Cavalry ate its horses and mules, monkies, dogs, snake etc. were part of the menu

Besides the 31st Inf Rgt and the Philippine Scouts the only professional ground force available was the 4th Marines evacuated from China in november 30th

Most Philippine units were woefully undertrained, many had no place to sleep except under the stars as they even lacked tents. US Army reserve officers sent out in October were suddenly thrust into command positions far above normal. captains commanding regiments, majors divisions.
 
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The 2nd Alamo can be squarely blamed on FDR sending NO reinforcements to the PI, LL took a great deal of US war material which could have reinforced USAFFE and sent it to the UK and USSR. The entire defense of the islands was also based upon holding out for 6 months until the US Pacific Fleet arrived, well we all know what happened to that

the only supplies getting in came by infrequent submarine visits and some very small coastal vessels

add to that- pre Pearl Harbor
Chronic shortages of small arms ammo and even steel helmets
Every infantry company had 2X60mm Mortars yet no 60mm bombs ever sent to the Philippines
81mm Mortars were standard bn weapons but a severe shortage meant 76mm stokes bombs used which resulted in drop shorts
75mm 1897 shells which were condemned for the artillery
3inch AA shells with condemned fuses sent
US M1917 Rifles with bad extractors sent to arm the Philippine army in the late 30's USAFFE Ordnance had to make new extractors or re heat treat old ones.

The entire time He had his QM and Ordnance staff sending telegrams asking for more and better gear, sending tech reports on weapons in use by them and the japanese (An example was the Garands would gall in heavy rain due to oil washing off the bolt lugs, Stateside lubriplate grease rapidly became the fix).

Now when the Army retreated into Bataan, refugees were allowed in, this immediately put the US forces on 1/2 rations as the refugees had to be fed. Millions of tons of rice which was supposed to be evacuated to Bataan for the garrison was left to feed Manila

Thousands of now unnecessary Sailors and Airmen pressed into service as infantry had to be armed, trained and equipped and Fed

The Cavalry ate its horses and mules, monkies, dogs, snake etc. were part of the menu

Besides the 31st Inf Rgt and the Philippine Scouts the only professional ground force available was the 4th Marines evacuated from China in november 30th

Most Philippine units were woefully undertrained, many had no place to sleep except under the stars as they even lacked tents. US Army reserve officers sent out in October were suddenly thrust into command positions far above normal. captains commanding regiments, majors divisions.
Regarding the lack of materiel, what was the US appraisal of Japan and the IJN prior to Pearl ? How were they viewed ? We certainly didnt appreciate them correctly.
 
Regarding the lack of materiel, what was the US appraisal of Japan and the IJN prior to Pearl ? How were they viewed ? We certainly didnt appreciate them correctly.
the Americans had always viewed Japan as the coming enemy and trained and planned accordingly. The Japanese got lucky, combination of out of the box thinking and too many US distractions, and some politically forced deployments, Pearl Harbor, but once they caught their breath, they were able to deal with the Japanese.
It’s often forgotten or even unknown, once the initial shock wore off, the US forces in Hawaii were given a pretty good account of themselves. IJN losses were significant in the 2nd wave, And would assuredly have been quite painful if the cancelled 3rd wave had gone in. The USN was well aware of the IJNs capabilities and certainly didn’t underestimate them.

As @Goldbricker points out, Lend Lease and the need to build up for the coming war in Europe took a lot of US resources out of the Pacific. Basically, First first year, the US fought The Japanese with one hand behind its back, (just 10% of US combat power), only gaining a quantitative edge in late 1943.

the USN and USMC had fully developed war plans by 1941 they used to defeat the Japanese.
 
You lot might find this interesting.

Growing up in western Canada, our next door neighbours were a Canadian family of Japanese descent. Mum and Dad were a bit wary at first because they knew survivors of the POW camps in Burma.

My birthday is around now and the lady next door would always get me cakes from the Japanese bakery for my birthday. One year she decided to tell me her story. She'd survived Hiroshima, which made no sense to me as she was Canadian born.

Turns out she had quite a life, just before Pearl Harbour, her Mum took her back to Japan to find a husband. The west coast Japanese were not big on family intermarriage. Well, they got stuck in Japan and faced some hostility as they were Canadians in many eyes.

She saw the atomic blast, suffered as all survivors due. When the US occupied Japan, they were amazed to find her and she wound up working for them for a few years as an interpreter.

Finally, they were repatriated to Canada. No husband found in the old country. No family in our area wanted their son to marry her to do "atomic contamination". Finally she met a young man who didn't care (he'd spent the war years interned). They married and eventually we moved next door.

When Canada gave out apology money (a paltry $10K to those who had had property seized and been interned) she wasn't eligible because she wasn't interned. $10K came nowhere close to what those families lost. Most of the coastal BC fishing fleet had been Japanese, a guy I went to school with, his grandparents had owned a very valuable corner in downtown Vancouver.

Her funeral and celebration of life was awesome, she died of pancreatic and bowel cancer at a good age. Her family had all of her post war pictures on display. There she was in her early 20s in a US uniform sitting on a jeep chatting to Generals.
Thanks for that.
I've read a good few accounts of the US internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry and also took the opportunity to visit Manzanar, the preserved internment camp which is situated between Death Valley and the eastern entrance to Yosemite.
But it's only recently that I've discovered to my surprise, how more harshly, compared to the US, were the Japanese living in British Columbia treated- families were usually separated with the men going off to road gangs or farm work in the interior.
In contrast to the US where the camps were emptied by VJ day, Japanese Canadians who have been evacuated from the west coast weren't allowed to return until 1949.

A couple of quotes from Wiki:

"Born in Canada, brought up on big-band jazz, Fred Astaire and the novels of Henry Rider Haggard, I had perceived myself to be as Canadian as the beaver. I hated rice. I had committed no crime. I was never charged, tried or convicted of anything. Yet I was fingerprinted and interned."
Ken Adachi

"It is the government's plan to get these people out of B.C. as fast as possible. It is my personal intention, as long as I remain in public life, to see they never come back here. Let our slogan be for British Columbia: ‘No Japs from the Rockies to the seas."
Ian Mackenzie, Minister of Pensions

One refreshing thing that crops up in accounts of internment in the US is the acknowledgment and gratitude of the internees to a very small number of American volunteers who helped in the internees various ways like the education of the children in the camps.

Wiki Link; Internment of Japanese Canadians
 

nanayon

Swinger
...

As to dropping them, f**k em. In the words of Harris, they started it, I'll finish it (or words involving sowing the seeds and reaping the whirlwind).
Actually not really.

The US lived on the east side of the ocean. In order to get bombed all the way from the west side, it had to be provoked.. which it was.

The FDR administration was positioning itself more and more behind the Nationalists Chinese. Up to he point of putting an oil embargo on Japan. The pincer of US oil embargo together and an non-elaborated demand of "get out of China" was enough to provoke Japan to gamble on the war. Even after the oil embargo was put in place, the Japanese government tried to set up a meeting between FDR and Konoye but the US side was not interested and sent only delayed responses of "get out of China".

Often arguments that press that the A-bombs were the right choice for a number of reasons include rhetoric about Japanese aggression in China. There are two points of time of these aggressive moves. Although the word "aggression" has been used in a political correct sort of way which implies uniquely bad form of expansion. The following points were certainly expansion. But to be labelled as "aggression" really is part of propaganda. The first point of "aggression" was the invasion into Manchuria in 1931. Certainly in the strict sense of the word, it could be aggressive, but since it brings along the propaganda baggage tied to it, expansion becomes the proper word. What was Manchuria like in 1931? Has that question ever been raised? From my observation in all of news outlets and so on.. never. I haven't seen it once. So what was it? It was a collapsed economy. Collapsed economy from what? From the Fengtian Clique. The what? It was one of the warlord factions during the Chinese warlord era. Who backed the Fengtian Clique? Japan did. It was a good buffer to have between it and the Soviet Union. What happened to the economy? It collapsed in 1928 because of too much adventurism in fighting other China warlords and poor leadership. It had a good economy once, thanks to a competent economy official. But when the economy collapsed because of the incompetent ruler at the top, the economist official ran away. One other notable event happened before the Japanese invasion in 1931. The Soviet Union attacked the left over Manchuria governorship in 1929 in order to establish control of a Russian built railway that ran across from the northwest of it to the southeast where Vladivostok was. Which by the way, Vladivostok and the rest of Outer Manchuria which used to be part of the Qing dynasty remains part of the Soviet Union still even today. So then everywhere else in the world during the 1920s and 1930s was still heavily involved with the maintenance of the colonies. So on the point about "Japanese aggression in Manchuria" really seems kind of meh at the end of it all. Far from a perfect model by Japan was still a democracy in those years. The Soviet Union surely was not. The Chinese factions would later prove to never evolve into such (CCP China and Chinag Kai-shek dictatorship until his death in Taiwan). So for anyone to think that the other western powers were full in the right on the basis of morality to highly criticize Japan for the invasion of Manchuria to the extent that Japan choose to leave the League of Nations is thinking that on the basis of not knowing any of this.

The second of two points of times that is usually referred to as part of the "Japanese aggression" package is the start of the Second-Sino Japanese War in 1937. But the Manchuria point was quite long and so I'll leave other points for later however replies may result.

But one other thing is that I really don't quite get the celebration for VJ day to such a high extent. Consider what immediately followed... the US cut Korea in half and gave the northern half to the Soviet sphere of influence. That resulted in the Korean War and all the way down to today with the Kim dynasty in the north. South Korea is often used a role model as to the success of US sphere for democracy and economic development. Yes, but that point only goes so far. First off, they didn't become democracy until the late 1980s. And it was also around that time when the South Korean economy really started to grew. If one was to measure as an improvement in comparison to when Korea was part of the Japanese empire, it really took 4 decades. So yes but with a number of buts.

Among other negative results from the total dismantling of the Japanese empire.

Lastly, saying that still comes in recognizing the many atrocities still carried out by the Japanese. And while I do not express a regret for the demise of the Japanese empire, I think when all things are taking into consideration, celebrations of VJ Day come very cheaply these days. History is not learned. Also uncalled for "fook'em" etc. continues on even today.

Oh one last point, while I would call the atomic bombs US applied terms "war crimes", I don't think there should be anything like an apology or anything like that. And yes of course, the various other bombings such as the fire bombing of Tokyo was worse than the Atomic bombs. So there is that degree of inflation just because it was an atomic bomb as opposed to some other type of conventional bomb.
 
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nanayon

Swinger
Quite so, pronounced without stress on any of the syllables.

Mind you, for many years, I was mis-led by the newspaper headline- 'Hiroshima Now Pronounced Devastated' :smile:
Well if we try that in Japanese syllables, it would be de-bah-s-tah-teh-doh. The s in the middle would be "soo" if fully pronounced but sometimes the syllable for "soo", or "su" in standard roman letter format, would be reduced to just the s consonant sound.
 

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