Hiroshima Day

Using Japanese survivors for target practice isn't good form either.

Japan had the form with SS Behar, SS Tjisalak, SS Jean Nicolet, MV Mamutu, SS Vyner Brooke on Banka island, the Nauran lepers, being put in boats and then sunk, the strafing of POW and Repulse survivors, the strafing of numerous allied fliers and shipwrecked sailors, civilians and natives
 
I thoroughly detested McNamara, He makes Rumsfeld look good.

He's the Jackoff who refused to chrome line the M16 Bores because it added US$2.50 to each rifle and men died because of him when the bores corroded and cartridges jammed tight.

He's the bastard who bombed North Vietnamese bridges instead of Paddy dikes which would have directly impacted the north's ability to feed itself, and sustain the war in Laos, Cambodia and South Vietnam

he had this thing called Project 100K which put men who were below physical and mental minimums into uniform and many were killed

I read once a Vietnam vet tried to throw him off the cape cod ferry as shark bait
He was also the man who got Ford to install seat belts into their cars and for Ford to sell the seat belt as a safety feature.
 
Japan had the form with SS Behar, SS Tjisalak, SS Jean Nicolet, MV Mamutu, SS Vyner Brooke on Banka island, the Nauran lepers, being put in boats and then sunk, the strafing of POW and Repulse survivors, the strafing of numerous allied fliers and shipwrecked sailors, civilians and natives
to be strictly fair, we were all at it.
I recall an old book published in 1946 by one of the British submarine Skippers who was operating against Japanese coastal shipping in the Bay of Bengal, shooting swimmers was a given. It was SOP to shoot up survivors from known troop ships from Day One in the Pacific.
Even in the ‘civilised ‘ EUropean war, Toby Miers got told ‘cease and disist’ for recording in his log shooting up Germans in the waters after he sank caiques in The Agean. Mush Morton raised a few eyebrows in the Pacific too.
About the only people who didn't were actually the Italians and Germans, iirc, only two verified instances of U Boats doing it. Very disapproved of by the Kreigesmarine higher ups.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
As was Werner Von Braun. who, if there was any justice in the world, should have been dangling at the end of a rope alongside the so-called 'Good Nazi' Albert Speer.
For knowingly employing slave labour under such harsh conditions during his rocket development that many of them died? Or for being the chief scientist developing terror (vengeance) weapons?
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
I recall a section in a book about a student who was in Hiroshima and woke up in a river with bodies floating next to him. He got out and made it home. To Nagasaki. I dont know what the Japanese for Oh crap not again is.
We used to use the ancient joke:

'Who said "what the f*** was that?"'

'The Mayor of Hiroshima!'

Sorry, serious head back on...
 

Bodenplatte

War Hero
to be strictly fair, we were all at it.
I recall an old book published in 1946 by one of the British submarine Skippers who was operating against Japanese coastal shipping in the Bay of Bengal, shooting swimmers was a given. It was SOP to shoot up survivors from known troop ships from Day One in the Pacific.
Even in the ‘civilised ‘ EUropean war, Toby Miers got told ‘cease and disist’ for recording in his log shooting up Germans in the waters after he sank caiques in The Agean. Mush Morton raised a few eyebrows in the Pacific too.
About the only people who didn't were actually the Italians and Germans, iirc, only two verified instances of U Boats doing it. Very disapproved of by the Kreigesmarine higher ups.
British pilots were ordered to fire on the Red Cross during the Battle of Britain, specifically the Air Sea Rescue seaplanes. The excuse was that the seaplanes were armed, and carried out reconnaissance, but the real reason was to kill German pilots.
 
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For knowingly employing slave labour under such harsh conditions during his rocket development that many of them died? Or for being the chief scientist developing terror (vengeance) weapons?
Your first point - the second point, V2s, fair enough, we were bombing civilians also, but the V2 remains the only weapon on which more people died in it's manufacture, than in it's use (if you discount the Burma-Siam railway, that is). The V2s were built in tunnels which did not exist at the start. Thousands of slave labourers died digging them. Likewise, German military manufacture peaked at the end of 1944, despite allied bombing. This was only achieved by slave labour - something that Speer claimed at Nuremburg to be unaware of.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
Unfortunately in the Wahoo incident, most of the survivors in the water were Indian Army PoWs

HM Sub Torbay fired on German survivors on at least two occasions in the Med. Details were entered in the Ship's Log, and no action was taken against the skipper - a VC winner who went on to hold Flag Rank in the post war RN.

On the other hand, three German U-Boat officers who had fired on Allied survivors in the water were executed by firing squad at Luneburg in November 1945.

Victor's justice.
I wonder, just wonder, if the three U boat crew members who were executed, shot the Allied survivors in the water to put them out of their misery?

Forgetting the Japanese for a moment, it occurs to me that the survivors in the sea would probably be covered in heavy oil, maybe burnt or otherwise wounded and a few hundred miles from the nearest hospital facilities.

The U boat crew, having no equipment on board to treat the survivors, no medicines, provisions or even space could have decided that a quick death would be better than a lingering one, and shot the seamen from a fellow Navy. We will never know I guess, even though the crew from our HM Sub Torbay did the same thing.

Just a thought, nothing more, from someone who has never had to use a firearm in anger...
 
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he had this thing called Project 100K which put men who were below physical and mental minimums into uniform and many were killed
MacNarama's Dummies some called them - CAT IV material that should never have been recruited but Johnson needed the numbers to bulk up the forces because early in his administration he had decided against calling up the Reserve forces for Vietnam but he found that we were running short. There was a damning piece about Mac Narama's Dummies in my VVA magazine last summer. I remember them and I had a few in my boot camp platoon. If they got to Vietnam, they were a danger to themselves and the squad. Think Forrest Gump, but it wasn't funny; in fact, it was tragic as many of them got killed. Mac Narama should be roasting in hell for that alone.
 
I wonder, just wonder, if the three U boat crew members who were executed, shot the Allied survivors in the water to put them out of their misery?

Forgetting the Japanese for a moment, it occurs to me that the survivors in the sea would probably be covered in heavy oil, maybe burnt or otherwise wounded and a few hundred miles from the nearest hospital facilities.

The U boat crew, having no equipment on board to treat the survivors, no medicines, provisions or even space could have decided that a quick death would be better than a lingering one, and shot the sea-men from a rival Navy. We will never know I guess, even though the crew from our HM Sub Torbay did the same thing.

Just a thought, nothing more, from someone who has never had to use a firearm in anger...
If one ever has to kill a human being to put them out of their misery, one has to be precise in where you hit them with SAA, otherwise death is neither quick not relatively painless. A gut shot bloke doesn't die quietly or quickly.
Blasting away at chaps in the water only encourages the sharks.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
MacNarama's Dummies some called them - CAT IV material that should never have been recruited but Johnson needed the numbers to bulk up the forces because early in his administration he had decided against calling up the Reserve forces for Vietnam but he found that we were running short. There was a damning piece about Mac Narama's Dummies in my VVA magazine last summer. I remember them and I had a few in my boot camp platoon. If they got to Vietnam, they were a danger to themselves and the squad. Think Forrest Gump, but it wasn't funny; in fact, it was tragic as many of them got killed. Mac Narama should be roasting in hell for that alone.
I'd heard of McNamara's Morons. My hazy recollection is that the US military now has a congressionally mandated need to apply an IQ t at to recruits and they have to have a score of 85+ as a result of what happened in Vietnam.
 
In peace time with no enemy opposition.

As I said, any army could have done it.



Ahh, Bagration, where the soviets lost 770,880 men.
In comparison the UK military KIA, for the entirety of WWII, amounts to 384,000.

F'kin masters of warfare all right. Managing to loose twice the number, on one operation, than we did in the entire war. Equally, If I remember right, the destroyed army group had been stripped of manpower and weapons to move to another part of the front due to Soviet decoy operations.
I believe Zhukov was once asked what orders he would give to soldiers about to advance into an area known to contain a minefield. He replied, "The same orders I would give them if the minefield wasn't there".

There is no doubt the Red Army contained some highly professional soldiers and officers. But the Soviet high command also took the view that the Germans would run out of ammo before the Red Army ran out of fresh bodies. And they were proven right.
 
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