Himmler murdered by British Intelligence, not suicide.

#1
Surfing at lunch time I came across this site and this quote;

DOCUMENTS discovered in Britain's Public Records Office, Kew, London, confirm revisionist claims that Himmler was liquidated by the British secret service on Churchill's orders, and did not commit suicide shortly after his capture as conformist historians have long maintained.
And these it seems confirm it;







I'm not shocked but more surprised they've let it leak that thats what really happened, doesn't this stuff normally get hidden away for 100 years?
 
#2
sadly not

The relevant documents are widely believed to be forgeries:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/02/nhimmler02.xml

Files on Himmler 'murder' exposed as fake
By Ben Fenton
Last Updated: 12:18am BST 03/07/2005

Documents from the National Archives used to substantiate claims that British intelligence agents murdered Heinrich Himmler in 1945 are forgeries, The Daily Telegraph can reveal today.

It seems certain that the bogus documents were somehow planted among genuine papers to pervert the course of historical study.

The results of investigations by forensic document experts on behalf of this newspaper have shocked historians and caused tremors at the Archives, the home of millions of historical documents, which has previously been thought immune to distortion or contamination.

The allegation that the SS leader was murdered, with the knowledge of Churchill and War Cabinet ministers, appeared in Himmler's Secret War, published in May.

What made the claim stand out from other allegations over the years was that it referred to specific documents in the National Archives at Kew - usually an absolute guarantee of validity.

But after The Daily Telegraph, like other newspapers, was approached to publicise the book, the documents began to raise suspicions.

The improbability of allegations that flatly contradict the accepted fact that Himmler killed himself and the use of language in documents that read more like excerpts from a spy thriller than dry civil service memos prompted this newspaper to raise concerns with the National Archives.

Officials gave permission for documents to be taken to the laboratories in Amersham, Bucks, of Dr Audrey Giles, one of the foremost forensic document specialists.

She discovered that letterheads on correspondence supposedly written in 1945 were created on a high-resolution laser printer, technology not developed until at least 50 years later.

Signatures supposed to be those of Brendan Bracken, the minister of information and head of the Political Warfare Executive, which aimed to subvert the German war effort, were found to be written over pencil tracings.

Dr Giles also found that it was almost certain that letters from two different government departments were written on the same, authentically contemporary, typewriter.

She concluded that at least four of the five suspect documents were forgeries and probably the fifth.

The findings were communicated to the National Archives this week, where a spokesman said: "We are very concerned and have commissioned an official forensic examination of these papers."

Asked if there would be a police investigation, he said: "We are taking this one step at a time, but we are taking it very seriously."

There is no suggestion that the Archives could have prevented papers being smuggled in.

The forged documents suggest that Himmler was killed by a PWE agent called Leonard Ingrams, the father of Richard Ingrams, the former editor of Private Eye.

The assassination was the supposed idea of two senior Foreign Office men, John Wheeler-Bennett and Sir Robert Bruce Lockhart.

But it was allegedly supported by Bracken and the Earl of Selborne, the head of the Special Operations Executive (SOE), the sabotage organisation set up by Churchill with the order to "set Europe ablaze".

Prof M R D Foot, the SOE official historian, said: "This story was twisting history and it will not do.

"It was obviously bogus, but I am very grateful that it has been proved to be so."

The findings of Dr Giles's examination were put yesterday to Martin Allen, the book's author. There is no suggestion that he was anything but a fall guy for the forgers.

"I think I have been set up," he said. "But I do not even know by whom. I am absolutely devastated."

He denied having anything to do with the creation of the documents.
 
#3
Ord Sgt, you may find that reliance on a site headlined by David Irving (famous holocaust denier) and proclaiming itself to be the 'International Campaign for Real History' is perhaps unwise - you may wish to expand your research to some alternative sources. I am also surprised by the signature on the last letter you uploaded - surely a letter addressed 'My Dear Top' would finish with 'Brendan' rather than 'Brendan Bracken' as he is clearly on familiar terms.

Damn, Yellow - beat me to it and with facts and evidence and everything!
 

Sixty

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#4
From 2005 but not picked up? David Irving involved?


On examining Himmler's Secret War and its references to the documentation referred to above, the staff at the Daily Telegraph noted that the letter by John Wheeler-Bennet mistakenly hyphenated Rober Bruce Lockart's name as Bruce-Lochart and also felt that the language used in these documents seemed suspiciously modern. They felt that the all was not as it seemed and that further investigation was necessary.

The Daily Telegraph therefore contacted David Thomas who runs the National Archives and persuaded him to allow the original documents to be subjected to a forensic examination at the Giles Document Laboratory in Buckinghamshire, run by a Dr Audrey Giles former head of the Questioned Documents Section of the Metropolitan Police Forensic Science Laboratory at Scotland Yard.

Having examined the three letters written by Brendan Bracken, which were typed on what appeared to be Ministry of Information headed notepaper, Dr Giles was able to conclude that the headed notepaper had in fact been produced on a laser printer of recent manufacture. After similarly examining the Wheeler-Bennet letter, the good doctor then formed the opinion that Lochart's note was not in his handwriting and that the original letter had been produced on the same typewriter as the Brendan Bracken letters. It was apparently not possible to form a definitive view of the authenticity of the telegram but Dr Giles believed that there was "strong support" that the telegram had been forged as well.

Dr Giles therefore concluded that these documents were in fact forgeries.
 
#5
I've had a quick look at your linky. My only comment is that the Mick Murphy I knew in the Intelligence Corps was only a SSgt and a fcuking scruffy bugger.

The rest of it is intriguing. But so what?

Edited to replace an asterisk; how come some can swear on here, but I can't? My mum says I'm old enough now.
 
#6
Yeah came across Irvings contribution after I'd posted, which of course set the alarm bells ringing. I was surprised that something this big, if true, was not more well known about. :oops:

Back to work, move along, nothing to see here. :p
 
#7
We can only hope it was slow for the twat.

But obviously forgeries, the way its wrote, for one they would never use his real name.
I hope it was true but unfortunatly doesnt look like it
 

TheIronDuke

ADC
Book Reviewer
#8
Anybody want to buy some diaries?




Or a nice bridge?
 
#9
Himmler forgeries book still on sale

By Ben Fenton
Last Updated: 12:58am BST 01/08/2005

The publishers of a book that accuses British intelligence of murdering Heinrich Himmler, the chief of the SS in Nazi Germany, say they will not withdraw the work even though its claims are based on forged documents.

Himmler's Secret War, by Martin Allen, is not only still on sale in bookshops but until last Friday was advertised on the website of Chrysalis Books as a "staff recommendation" to readers.

A month ago The Daily Telegraph revealed that the papers on which Mr Allen relied were not written in 1945, as he claimed, but were recent forgeries smuggled into the National Archives by unknown hands.

Richard Ingrams, the former editor of Private Eye and the son of the man Mr Allen alleges was directly responsible for the "murder", called the continued sale of the book "a disgrace and a vicious slur on my father".

Mr Allen and Robson Books, the imprint of Chrysalis responsible for the book's publication, said at first that if the archives confirmed the findings they would face having to take the book off sale.

But last week, a fortnight after an archives investigation confirmed the forgery, Jeremy Robson, the publisher, said: "I think the wrong questions are being asked.

"You answer those questions - how did the forgeries get there, who put them there, are they the ones our author saw or were they put there afterwards? - then we'll see."

Mr Allen has acknowledged that five of the forged documents are the ones he quoted.

In the face of all this, Chrysalis's website says that, among the "numerous explosive revelations" in the book, the "most dramatic of all is previously unseen evidence that sheds new light on the circumstances of Himmler's death".

Mr Allen did not reply to a written question from the Telegraph last week asking him about withdrawal of the book.

Not only the claim about the murder but also the central thesis of the book - that Himmler held secret peace talks with Britain - have been undermined by relying on forgeries.

The archives have confirmed as forged two letters allegedly written by Brendan Bracken, the wartime information minister, setting the scene for the alleged talks via Britain's embassy in Sweden.

Andrew Roberts, a biographer of Winston Churchill and a leading historian of the period, said: "The behaviour of the publishers seems to me to be shameful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/01/nhimm01.xml

The NA report on all this apparently isn't available yet.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=64242
 
#10
I remember seeing an interview with one of the men who arrested Himmler in 1945. There was a strong implication that once they realised who it was, they gave him a good shoeing before passing him up the chain.

Not the same as bumping him off, although there were supposed to have been a few unofficial squads from the Jewish Brigade tracking down known war criminals and taking them for "a walk in the woods".
 
#11
The bit that worries me is if it is to be believed 'we' topped 'Little H' (love that bit!) why is there no mention of 'us' doing-in his 'Frue und kinder' at the same time? Sloppy forgery drills (thought Irving would have grasped at that point too)!
 
#12
...what did the yanks want him for and what did we have to hide ?

my only regret that he may have died too swiftly, I am sure in similar circumstances he would have drawn out the process for weeks and extracted everything required .....I do hope he is spinning on a spit downstairs so I can add some petrol when I check in, a bad bad man who Martin McG will surely replace above the flames
 
#13
Also using PWE in the alleged assassination plan was rather bizarre. The Political Warfare Executive was the enemy propaganda department conducting psychological warfare against the Axis.

I detect the hand of Holocaust-deniers in all this. They have tried to demonise PWE as the agency responsible for "faking the Holocaust", principally they claim it was done by Sefton Delmer as head of black propaganda and his good friend Leonard Ingrams. (Ingrams did work for both SOE and PWE involved in economic warfare against Germany).

Sounds like this nasty little fraud was to help further their conspiracy theory against PWE.

Seeding archives with fake material is a real worry. I'm glad to see the security at Kew has been very much hiked up over the last few years. Fortunately this attempt was badly executed and easy to detect.
But Kew should really print a sequential serial number on every page of a document before it's released to the public or use some other security measure to help prevent this sort of thing.
 
#14
I see that this "Himmler's Secret War" book is available on Google Book Search.

Just had a quick look at some of it and I think there's even more faked sources used then just the Himmler assassination correspondence. There's a memo about attacking Russia that looks very dubious too (page 92).
 
#15
Re Himmler and chicken farming ?

In 1999 at the Beltringe War and Peace Show two local historians from Margate managed to gain entry to a marquee. To their surprise (a statement was sent to Lord Greville Janner and to Rex Cadman who runs the show who took action) they came across a holocuats denial lecture being given to pseudo military cadets from across Europe.

One of the historians (ex ammo tech) interrupted on the subject of Peenemunde.

He sounds rather like John Cleese if you would imagine his voice.

"Excuse me old man but did you just say there were no death camps in Germany"

Behind the speaker were portraits of Himmler.

"Now your man there" said the ex ammo tech, " Was a chicken breeder who went bust. And I can tell you why that was. He tried to breed the Aryan racially superior chicken. What he should have done was to introduce a kosher cock to improve the gene pool"

At that point he was asked to leave.

"Perhaps I might explain my joke first to these impudent European cadets wearing tee shirts emblazoned with SS logos. Incidentally of units who pushed populations about but were smashed the first time they ran into Mister Thomas Atkins"

He of course would never admit to a bit of revisionism in the cause of a good insult.
 
#16
PsyWar

The above local historian did trip across two WW2 mysteries:

(1) Werner Bartells crashed Messerschmidt Margate.

(2) The great Max Schmeling (Joe Louis opponent who paid for Joe Louis medical care towards the end of the Brown Bomber's life). A Luftwaffe paratrooper Battle of Crete (against the TA Artillery unit from the Margate area) ... a German unit that won Papal and US Army commendations for humanitarianism. A unit which appears to have surrendered to the Americans and been re-armed and set loose on the Russians helping define the post war borders apparently ???? ......
 
#17
It got plenty of publicity at the time and NA have tightened up their visitor control procedures no end, although they're not yet strip searching people looking for cunningly hidden forged docs to be inserted in files to alter history.
 
#18
It would have served no purpose, Churchill wanted them all hanged and was probably peeved as hell when Himmler cracked open that cyanide capsule.

There are rumours of some rather juicy stuff tucked away in the NA though.

Did Britain have prior knowledge of Pearl Harbour for example?

That's the big one!

Hopefull we'll find out when all is revealed in 2045, if we're still around that is!
 
#20
oldnotbold said:
Anybody know where the Duke of Edinburgh was that day?
Fugging duke...
 

Similar threads

Top