Hidden KGB Weapons in UK

The thing to remember was that although they looked military(ish) ROC Posts like this were officially completely unarmed and staffed by RAF Civilians. Great store was set on their Non-Combatant Status, officially at least
Officially unarmed. But plenty of the posts were rural, and although the advice received was that if Farmer Giles turned up at the hatch with a shotgun you were to let him have the post, a fair few of us had FACs and shotgun licences. On my first post we made a conscious decision not to use the siren nor maroons as the only people who would hear them were one farmer and his sheep.

Our legal status was a weird one. I was a uniformed part time civil servant, technically under Home Office control. Yet we were also classed as TA & VR, possibly at the same time (I think that I last checked that about 35 years ago, so I may have timings wrong). Yet we had officers, but they weren't commissioned but warranted, and full time officers still had to do the vicars and tarts course at Cranwell even though they were civil servants.

Back to the subject of the thread, at stand down in 1991 there were I think 872 active posts nationwide. However at one point there had been about 1,500. Most of the remainder had been closed, and presumably abandoned, in the 1960s. There was actually a post in my home village that closed in 1968. In that pre internet age most of these would quickly be forgotten, so I would think that some would be ideal for illicit arms storage. And who could resist the irony of an illegal arms store being provided by the British government?
 
No.
The Spetznaz would be armed as paratroopers.
These weapons caches were backups for Spetznaz and / or for sleeper / insurgent cells.
Would not finding a cache next to/near a high value target give away the game? Just set up a few vulcan 20 mm SPAAG's and duck hunt the Ilyushins (Besides Spetz only need hatchets and a trampoline for back flip attacks)


I mean if its supposed to also be clandestine caches why use Combloc weapons instead of UK?
 

Donny

ADC
Why go to the bother of smuggling all these weapons in, hiding them, planting sleepers, organizing sabotage ops etc, when you can inflict significantly more damage simply by promoting the Labour Party?
The like’s for your tribute avatar. The thread is barking mad..
 

The_Gremlin

Old-Salt
Would not finding a cache next to/near a high value target give away the game? Just set up a few vulcan 20 mm SPAAG's and duck hunt the Ilyushins (Besides Spetz only need hatchets and a trampoline for back flip attacks)


I mean if its supposed to also be clandestine caches why use Combloc weapons instead of UK?
You'd need to ask Vasili Mitrokhin.
I didn't actually come up with this plan myself. I just read about it on the internet and it interested me.
 
My bold NCIS have already done an episode about this possibility in the USA.

Charles Bronson did it even earlier
 

31alpha

Old-Salt
Officially unarmed. But plenty of the posts were rural, and although the advice received was that if Farmer Giles turned up at the hatch with a shotgun you were to let him have the post, a fair few of us had FACs and shotgun licences. On my first post we made a conscious decision not to use the siren nor maroons as the only people who would hear them were one farmer and his sheep.

Our legal status was a weird one. I was a uniformed part time civil servant, technically under Home Office control. Yet we were also classed as TA & VR, possibly at the same time (I think that I last checked that about 35 years ago, so I may have timings wrong). Yet we had officers, but they weren't commissioned but warranted, and full time officers still had to do the vicars and tarts course at Cranwell even though they were civil servants.

Back to the subject of the thread, at stand down in 1991 there were I think 872 active posts nationwide. However at one point there had been about 1,500. Most of the remainder had been closed, and presumably abandoned, in the 1960s. There was actually a post in my home village that closed in 1968. In that pre internet age most of these would quickly be forgotten, so I would think that some would be ideal for illicit arms storage. And who could resist the irony of an illegal arms store being provided by the British government?
I suspect the metaphorical "granny's Claymore" would have been coming out the thatch for post defence but the official story was always that we were Civilian and unarmed . whether or not that held up during or after TTW phase thankfully was never tested. I would not have like to see some of my colleagues with a pea shooter let alone a firearm.
Back on topic the problem with any Post's covert reuse would have that every bugger knew exactly where they were, down to 6 figure grid refs. Certainly the ones I knew in 24 GP were targets for urban explorers and local clowns as they fell into disuse
 

The_Gremlin

Old-Salt
Officially unarmed. But plenty of the posts were rural, and although the advice received was that if Farmer Giles turned up at the hatch with a shotgun you were to let him have the post, a fair few of us had FACs and shotgun licences. On my first post we made a conscious decision not to use the siren nor maroons as the only people who would hear them were one farmer and his sheep.

Back to the subject of the thread, at stand down in 1991 there were I think 872 active posts nationwide. However at one point there had been about 1,500. Most of the remainder had been closed, and presumably abandoned, in the 1960s. There was actually a post in my home village that closed in 1968. In that pre internet age most of these would quickly be forgotten, so I would think that some would be ideal for illicit arms storage. And who could resist the irony of an illegal arms store being provided by the British government?
Slight thread drift, but interesting point about the farmer.
Did the farmers own the land these ROC OPs were built on?
Or did the govt purchase that little patch of ground from the farmers?

Presumably there must have been an access covenant / easement written into the deeds - to allow the ROC personnel access for training?
 
I suspect the metaphorical "granny's Claymore" would have been coming out the thatch for post defence but the official story was always that we were Civilian and unarmed . whether or not that held up during or after TTW phase thankfully was never tested. I would not have like to see some of my colleagues with a pea shooter let alone a firearm.
Back on topic the problem with any Post's covert reuse would have that every bugger knew exactly where they were, down to 6 figure grid refs. Certainly the ones I knew in 24 GP were targets for urban explorers and local clowns as they fell into disuse
Have you been to the restored HQ in York? The English Heritage guide gives some clock and bull story at the start of the tour about how one person is armed to stop unauthorised access to the site. I think that some of the 20 Group lads may have been winding EH up with that one.

I had a FAC as a student and as far as I am aware was the only member of my crew in 8 Group with one. I'm not sure how much use my .22 Beretta 70S would have been as I couldn't hit a barn door with it, from inside the barn. However I was originally 23 Group, and one post there was run by a family of inbreds (relatives of mine as it embarrassingly turned out) who were all farm workers and quite open about the measures they would take if necessary. You are quite correct though, we never had to find out, thankfully.

The post in my home village that was abandoned in 1968 I found out about two years ago. I knew, or thought that i knew, every street, back alley and lane in my village. I delivered newspapers to pretty much every house. Yet this abandoned post was at the end of a secluded lane that no one bothered with. Even kids didn't play there. By the early 80s that area was properly overgrown and frankly forgotten. You could have sat there all day and not seen another human being, yet the post was only a mile from the centre of the village. So I think that the use of some abandoned posts as arms dumps might have been feasible.
 
Slight thread drift, but interesting point about the farmer.
Did the farmers own the land these ROC OPs were built on?
Or did the govt purchase that little patch of ground from the farmers?

Presumably there must have been an access covenant / easement written into the deeds - to allow the ROC personnel access for training?
Pass. I suspect that it could be yes and no.

There is a post at Worth Matravers in Dorset with a perimeter fence that states that it is MoD land and to keep out. I saw several posts in Durham that had low perimeter fences, and one with a high fence. My first post in Durham was on the top of a moor, was 100 yards off a private road and had a stepping stone type path across the moor to get to it. The path was marked by pipes driven into the ground with small flat metal squares on top, at a perfect height for tearing off your kneecaps if you didn't see them in the dark. The post itself had no perimeter fence at all and was dug up by the farmer after it closed.
 

The_Gremlin

Old-Salt
Pass. I suspect that it could be yes and no.

There is a post at Worth Matravers in Dorset with a perimeter fence that states that it is MoD land and to keep out. I saw several posts in Durham that had low perimeter fences, and one with a high fence. My first post in Durham was on the top of a moor, was 100 yards off a private road and had a stepping stone type path across the moor to get to it. The path was marked by pipes driven into the ground with small flat metal squares on top, at a perfect height for tearing off your kneecaps if you didn't see them in the dark. The post itself had no perimeter fence at all and was dug up by the farmer after it closed.
Well yes, as an infantry soldier I often trained on Sennybridge training area - without giving much thought to the leasehold arrangements between the farmer and the MoD involved in the land I was on.

Would be interesting to know whether the farmer would have considered taking over the ROC OP in the event of a nuclear war.

In his situation (in a nuclear war scenario) I would probably have considered killing the ROC occupants. Just so I could use the facility for shelter and storage. I can't think of any benefit to the farmer of having the ROC on his land.
 
Ex Observer
Browsing while having a meal for one as I get ready for Sunday in London so apologies for not searching ROC thread.
My mother and father served on the post on Cotherstone Moor. Is that he same one? I couldn't have been more than 5, left the area in 1959, but do remember going up there. Presumably babysitters a bit of an issue.
There is a post at Lepe country park on solent edge of New Forest. They've attached a CCTV to a 'tube' from the inside. Not sure if it's the vent or the remains of a measuring instrument.
 

The_Gremlin

Old-Salt
Ex Observer
Browsing while having a meal for one as I get ready for Sunday in London so apologies for not searching ROC thread.
My mother and father served on the post on Cotherstone Moor. Is that he same one? I couldn't have been more than 5, left the area in 1959, but do remember going up there. Presumably babysitters a bit of an issue.
There is a post at Lepe country park on solent edge of New Forest. They've attached a CCTV to a 'tube' from the inside. Not sure if it's the vent or the remains of a measuring instrument.
Maybe you were conceived in that bunker?
 
Ex Observer
Browsing while having a meal for one as I get ready for Sunday in London so apologies for not searching ROC thread.
My mother and father served on the post on Cotherstone Moor. Is that he same one? I couldn't have been more than 5, left the area in 1959, but do remember going up there. Presumably babysitters a bit of an issue.
There is a post at Lepe country park on solent edge of New Forest. They've attached a CCTV to a 'tube' from the inside. Not sure if it's the vent or the remains of a measuring instrument.
Cotherstone was Durham 47 Post in modern numbering. I believe that they may have been numbered differently in the 50s. It is the post that I was thinking of that had the high fence around it. The Leading Observer on that post was a French teacher at my school and he was one of my two referees on my application to join. There were also two brothers on that post who were in my sixth form, including one who was in my A-Level Statistics class. 47 Post was part of my Cluster, but I was on 45 Post Woodland.

I haven't seen the post at Lepe. The tubes could be for the Bomb Power Indicator or the Fixed Survey Meter.
 

The_Gremlin

Old-Salt
Slightly off thread - but I recall reading somewhere that in the event of a nuclear war, the govt planned to use the Armed Forces to seal off the escape routes out of the main cities.
Essentially, the civilians in the cities were to be sacrificed, to prevent them becoming a burden on those in the countryside (ie farmers and ROC observers) who it was hoped could survive.

No doubt this will attract a tin foil hat response. But there you go.
 
Gremlin
Just trying to find some mind bleach.
Knowing my mother I don't think so, but as shes sill hale and hearty at 92 Ill ask when i see her at xmas.
As I was born in March 54, I think I'm more likely the result of post Coronation celebrations.
 
I suspect the metaphorical "granny's Claymore" would have been coming out the thatch for post defence but the official story was always that we were Civilian and unarmed . whether or not that held up during or after TTW phase thankfully was never tested. I would not have like to see some of my colleagues with a pea shooter let alone a firearm.
Back on topic the problem with any Post's covert reuse would have that every bugger knew exactly where they were, down to 6 figure grid refs. Certainly the ones I knew in 24 GP were targets for urban explorers and local clowns as they fell into disuse
Any pictures of abandoned posts I have seen and the one near to me suggest that they would be unsuitable as cache locations. They go downhill quickly.
 

The_Gremlin

Old-Salt

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