Hezbo short range rocket tactics

#1
Thought this might be of interest:

How the IDF blew chance to destroy short-range rockets

By Ze'ev Schiff, Ha'aretz daily newspaper online

A large number of the short-range rockets fired at Israel from southern Lebanon were launched from permanent positions, the Israel Air Force discovered by chance toward the end of the war. The discovery was made after an air strike burned away vegetation, revealing a dug-in Katyusha position on a permanent launch pad. Additional permanent positions were subsequently discovered.

If the tactical intelligence of the Northern Command was unaware of the existence of hundreds of permanent short-range rocket launching positions in South Lebanon, then this is a major intelligence failure. If the Northern Command knew of them and did not pass on detailed information to the air force, then this is a serious failure in the management of the war.

Short-range rockets were one of the biggest problems in Hezbollah's war of attrition against Israeli civilians. The size of these rockets - sometimes small enough to be carried on the back of a donkey, on a motorcycle or by one or two men - made then difficult to pinpoint.

Hezbollah managed to fire a large number of Katyushas during the war - as many as 240 in one day toward the end of the fighting. The rockets, stored near the launch points in underground shelters or houses, were usually aimed with a direction and trajectory precalculated to hit a specific target in Israel. They were usually set up in orchards by arrangement with the grove owners, who were paid by Hezbollah.

The two-by-three-meter positions consisted of a hydraulic launch pad in a lined pit. The pad could be raised to fire the 122-mm rockets from a launcher at its center, and then lowered and camouflaged with vegetation. The farmers received instructions by cell phone regarding the number of rockets to launch and in what direction and range. They were often provided with thermal blankets to cover the position in order to keep IAF aircraft from detecting the post-shooting heat signature.

If the IAF had had details regarding the permanent positions of these short-range rockets, it is reasonable to assume the results of the struggle against them would have been different at the end of the fighting.
 
#2
Apart from the hydraulic pad bit, the rest seems a bit familiar to me, PIRA attack on Heathrow anyone?
 
#3
loofkar said:
Thought this might be of interest:

How the IDF blew chance to destroy short-range rockets

By Ze'ev Schiff, Ha'aretz daily newspaper online

A large number of the short-range rockets fired at Israel from southern Lebanon were launched from permanent positions, the Israel Air Force discovered by chance toward the end of the war. The discovery was made after an air strike burned away vegetation, revealing a dug-in Katyusha position on a permanent launch pad. Additional permanent positions were subsequently discovered.

If the tactical intelligence of the Northern Command was unaware of the existence of hundreds of permanent short-range rocket launching positions in South Lebanon, then this is a major intelligence failure. If the Northern Command knew of them and did not pass on detailed information to the air force, then this is a serious failure in the management of the war.

Short-range rockets were one of the biggest problems in Hezbollah's war of attrition against Israeli civilians. The size of these rockets - sometimes small enough to be carried on the back of a donkey, on a motorcycle or by one or two men - made then difficult to pinpoint.

Hezbollah managed to fire a large number of Katyushas during the war - as many as 240 in one day toward the end of the fighting. The rockets, stored near the launch points in underground shelters or houses, were usually aimed with a direction and trajectory precalculated to hit a specific target in Israel. They were usually set up in orchards by arrangement with the grove owners, who were paid by Hezbollah.

The two-by-three-meter positions consisted of a hydraulic launch pad in a lined pit. The pad could be raised to fire the 122-mm rockets from a launcher at its center, and then lowered and camouflaged with vegetation. The farmers received instructions by cell phone regarding the number of rockets to launch and in what direction and range. They were often provided with thermal blankets to cover the position in order to keep IAF aircraft from detecting the post-shooting heat signature.

If the IAF had had details regarding the permanent positions of these short-range rockets, it is reasonable to assume the results of the struggle against them would have been different at the end of the fighting.
Any chance of a link mate
 
#4
Sven said:
loofkar said:
Thought this might be of interest:

How the IDF blew chance to destroy short-range rockets

By Ze'ev Schiff, Ha'aretz daily newspaper online

A large number of the short-range rockets fired at Israel from southern Lebanon were launched from permanent positions, the Israel Air Force discovered by chance toward the end of the war. The discovery was made after an air strike burned away vegetation, revealing a dug-in Katyusha position on a permanent launch pad. Additional permanent positions were subsequently discovered.

If the tactical intelligence of the Northern Command was unaware of the existence of hundreds of permanent short-range rocket launching positions in South Lebanon, then this is a major intelligence failure. If the Northern Command knew of them and did not pass on detailed information to the air force, then this is a serious failure in the management of the war.

Short-range rockets were one of the biggest problems in Hezbollah's war of attrition against Israeli civilians. The size of these rockets - sometimes small enough to be carried on the back of a donkey, on a motorcycle or by one or two men - made then difficult to pinpoint.

Hezbollah managed to fire a large number of Katyushas during the war - as many as 240 in one day toward the end of the fighting. The rockets, stored near the launch points in underground shelters or houses, were usually aimed with a direction and trajectory precalculated to hit a specific target in Israel. They were usually set up in orchards by arrangement with the grove owners, who were paid by Hezbollah.

The two-by-three-meter positions consisted of a hydraulic launch pad in a lined pit. The pad could be raised to fire the 122-mm rockets from a launcher at its center, and then lowered and camouflaged with vegetation. The farmers received instructions by cell phone regarding the number of rockets to launch and in what direction and range. They were often provided with thermal blankets to cover the position in order to keep IAF aircraft from detecting the post-shooting heat signature.

If the IAF had had details regarding the permanent positions of these short-range rockets, it is reasonable to assume the results of the struggle against them would have been different at the end of the fighting.
Any chance of a link mate
2m x 3m....Hardly something the size of Cape canaveral I would submit, and no doubt very easy to conceal, and once concealed probably very difficult to see from the air / satellite.... once concealed.
 
#5
I have a problem with this thread.

Having done a search on the Haaretz website using the headline as the boolean, I can find no evidence of this article.

Therefore Loofkar, I ask You again.

Can You provide a link please??
 
#7
Many thanks LK.

I think that Schiff is a little harsh on the Israeli Intelligence. The Israeli commanders relied too much on airpower in the early stages of the war and so were unable to get useful intelligence until the latter stages.

I would be interested to learn why the radar was unable to pick up 240 missles all being lobbed from the same point on the ground
 
#8
If these reports are true then how did the much-vaunted Israeli intel services not pick up on these when they were being constructed in the first place?
 
#9
The 240 missiles were along the northern border. They couldn't have all been launched from the same point because of the diverse ranges of the points of impact.
 
#11
green pine was deployed, as were the anti-missile missiles that go with it. they are ballistic intercept, and need about 90 secs to aquire, lock and destroy. a katusha is in air about 30secs. they're working on it however. but as a post of mine recently noted, many katusha hits on car parks etc., or open ground (recently viewed by yours truly if it makes any difference) are not worth it, green pine or the son of green pine, logistically, economically.
 
#12
I thought that the military spec radar the Israelis have had the wherewithal to pick up Katyushas from just after launch (once it had risen above the ground clutter) to the point where it connected.
 
#13
Sven said:
I thought that the military spec radar the Israelis have had the wherewithal to pick up Katyushas from just after launch (once it had risen above the ground clutter) to the point where it connected.
thats my understanding as well
 
#14
loofkar said:
Thought this might be of interest:

A large number of the short-range rockets fired at Israel from southern Lebanon were launched from permanent positions, the Israel Air Force discovered by chance toward the end of the war. The discovery was made after an air strike burned away vegetation, revealing a dug-in Katyusha position on a permanent launch pad. Additional permanent positions were subsequently discovered................If the IAF had had details regarding the permanent positions of these short-range rockets, it is reasonable to assume the results of the struggle against them would have been different at the end of the fighting.
And now, thanks to the IDF policy of massive destruction in S Lebanon they have given the population a superb opportunity to build a lot more nice solid concrete positions, and not just launch pads. I will be amazed if the next Israeli attempt to reach the Liatani does not find that every village and farmhouse has become a fortified strongpoint, lots of reinforced defences built into cellars etc. There will be a heap of rebuilding going on, no way that the analysts will be able to check what is being built.

..........and I love that line about it not being worth firing at Katyusha anyway, because they only hit cat-parks. Over 1000 Lebanese civilians died in Israels response to these damaged car-parks !!
 
#15
saladin said:
..........and I love that line about it not being worth firing at Katyusha anyway, because they only hit cat-parks. Over 1000 Lebanese civilians died in Israels response to these damaged car-parks !!
I think Hezbollah will think again long and hard before rattling the sabre at Israel... My impression is that they are feeling some back blast from the lebanese right now, and they're not too comfortable with either their military or political position.

It is of note that Syria is keeping an extremely low profile at the moment also....
 
#16
It is of note that Syria is keeping an extremely low profile at the moment also....
It is of note Syria kept a low profile all the way through , and disdained to be involved in a blatant attempt to drag them into a wider war.
 
#17
sven: sure the radars can pick up the launch within about 3 secs. but to lock on and launch takes longer. there are sirens which send people to the shelters.

on a launch of 200 katushas, rocket propelled mortars?, are you going to send up a couple of hundred anti-missile missiles? or such like for 120mm mortars, thousands. or build a few hospitals?

options they are looking at: includes oerlikons with explosive ammo, blah, blah, blah.

and i thought that the israelis were paying back for saladin's massacre of the christians of jerusalem in 1192, or thereabouts. looking foward to the melodrama..
 
#18
low-profile said:
sven: sure the radars can pick up the launch within about 3 secs. but to lock on and launch takes longer. there are sirens which send people to the shelters.

on a launch of 200 katushas, rocket propelled mortars?, are you going to send up a couple of hundred anti-missile missiles? or such like for 120mm mortars, thousands. or build a few hospitals?

options they are looking at: includes oerlikons with explosive ammo, blah, blah, blah.

and i thought that the israelis were paying back for saladin's massacre of the christians of jerusalem in 1192, or thereabouts. looking foward to the melodrama..
I wasn't referring to Green Pine, but to the ordinary military spec radar the equivilent of what used to be at Fylindales etc. The long and short of it is that if the radar noticed katyushas being launched consistantly in a certain place then it might just point to there being a hardpoint there. Thus worthy of a gander by a passing tank battalion or two
 
#19
Mr_Bridger said:
I think Hezbollah will think again long and hard before rattling the sabre at Israel... My impression is that they are feeling some back blast from the lebanese right now, and they're not too comfortable with either their military or political position. quote]

eh? what makes you think the lebanese are throwing some back blast their way? I'll admit I haven't been following the news closely... but all I hear are stories of Iranian funded reconstruction programs... extremely efficient cleaning up by Hezbolah soldiers doubling as social workers and CIMIC affairs specialists.

Surely you mean you'd like it if Hezbollah were feeling some back blast...

Random vaguely supporting article http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=701371

Tricam.
 
#20
sven: from what i've been able to piece together, the rocket launchers if mobile were repeatedly used from built up areas, inbetween blocks of flats. flat bed trucks. if and when there was a shot, there was a possibility/probabilty of collateral damage.

there is also quite a complex of hezbollah fortifications. starting at the mediteranean coast, running, the first complex that is, 8 kms inland, in line with the internationally recognised border, where the hezbollah kicked off by crossing over to attack a border patrol vehicle killing five and kidnapping two, and three lines deep.

as it runs right by a unifil post at the sea one wonders if they are blind, as it was never officially reported.

it's not the showers, galleys etc., therein, that get me, but the air-conditioning. is this where the euro grants were going? air-conditioning! bunkers de-luxe.

there were fire points in those lines, on hydraulic ramps, inside feet of concrete. some were incapacitated by bombing.

these complexes are absolute tank traps. the iranian revolutionary gaurds know their business. it might also be a cliche to say it, but they fight dirty. they were eventually outflanked, but through some tortuous ravines. very hard difficult country, limestone cliffs, lots of cover. the larger rockets, truly ballistic, and designed for steep if not vertical re-entry were taken out in the main by air force early, they need a much larger installation for firing.

one thing about the israelis, and their reactions: because they are so familiar with war, rather than it being thousands of miles away in the sudan, chechnya, or afghanistan, and live it, rather than watch it on the tv inbetween the beer adverts, they as a people put it into as correct a perspective as possible, in the circumstances.
 

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