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Here are some important facts about the Conservative Party

tweckyspat said:
NO !!!!!!

did you vote in 97 ? we seem to have quickly forgotten (and no arr-chive-s to remind us) that many then voted "neu arbeit" because "Things could only get better"

and they didn't

don't waste your time. Govts (any colour) undervalue the military. Outside of war - threatening national security type war - they will always shaft us. Hence Wellington's infamous letter to the bean counters " I can account for my saddles or beat the Spanish. Please let me know which you would prefer " and Rudyard Kipling's poetry.

The only difference this time is that the style and manner of the shafting is (apparently) more distasteful to you. The bald facts are that the electorate are more interested in the economy, education, health and their standard of living than with us. That their view may be influenced by spin, lies or propaganda may be unwelcome and unpleasant to you but do you really think a new Govt will eschew these proven and effective techniques to gain and maintain power ? You could argue that those parties which have decided to try and maintain the moral high ground have failed to gain popularity precisely because they have not used these tactics !

I will vote on the day because failing to vote further undermines the govts credibility. But there will still be amalgamations, Defence Secs who see the post as a stepping stone to higher office, shaftings etc. I am amazed that otherwise enlightened arrse-ites cannot see this

I don't see that this government's record on honesty is any different to any other. The incumbents of Number 10 have always done whatever they can, to manipulate whoever they can, to achieve their aims, and that has almost been a definition of politics since before the days of Plato.

Anthony Blair is a clever man. He will say something that appears to say one thing but in fact means the opposite, he will play his opponents off against each other and he probably has ambition to rule the world, but I defy any one of the 'Bliar' gang (and that particular play on words, yawn, stopped being funny about 2 years ago) to prove he has actually lied. (Not forgetting that four separate, independant parliamentary enquiries have cleared him.)

I'm not saying that TB doesn't want to lie and cheat, far from it. I'm saying he is far too clever to get caught doing it, and is clever enough that he doesn't have to. He's just a very good politician.

Oh yes, I hate the cnut and everything he stands for.
 
Some of your memories or basis of argument against the Torries only go back to a portion the last Torry government

Study any time that Labour has been in power and examine what they did and what happened to Britain, and the military, under them.
How have they changed Britain?
How have they as a Party changed if at all?
Was any of it for the better?
Does Britain have strong Industry?
Where was the QM2 built, and why?
What state is the British automobile industry in?
 
tweckyspat said:
am I alone in finding the energy and passion expended by so many
arrs-ites in anti-"neu arbeit" mode as a tad naiive ??

you youngsters will hardly remember how cr@p it was last time we had a tory government. A string of underwhelming Defence Secs (eg Portillo ??????) and some horrendous cuts which left the CR2fleet without engines and lifelong enemies in the Inf facing amalgamation (plus ca change !)

A new gov of any colour will still be under the same pressures to save money and use Mil forces around the world to "punch above our weight" attempting to safeguard things like our seat on UNSC

This is not a party political point. We have been shafted and (probably) lied to by this latest gov but there is no reason that I can see that we will not be shafted by the next - whoever wins.

We should save our energy and effort on the things we can do something about eg training standards, leading and managing soldiers etc etc

Not as much as I remember the previous labour admin. remember the "crisis what crisis" statement, I remember litter pilled up in streets, constant power cuts and the embarrassment of bodies waiting to be buried, which may have been embarrassing to the government but felt a lot worse to the families of the deceased, I also remember them saying how abhorrent the Upper House, House of Lords was as part of a political system, only to see the large number of them happily sat there with large renumerations for doing so and nice expense accounts, I seem to remember about 33% income tax as base, this was after a promise of no rises in the rate, sound familiar, and a national debt due to Government borrowing, all sounds a bit familiar. Then just before 1997 all the promises well we all know it is impossible to believe all of them but why are we taken as fools by them, maybe because some of us can!
 
Vote Monster Raving Looney Party
you know it makes sense. and BTW i have enough politico's hassling me everuytime i step out down town, i do not particularly need it on arrse. so all you apprentice politicians give it a rest please, none of them make honest sense.IMO
 
At least it took a few years for the previous Tory Govt to become arrogant with power. TB and his cronies were arrogant the moment they stepped thru the door of number 10. I for one am financially worse off than I was 8 years ago. My local cottage hospital was supposed to be redeveloped and made larger (Q large labour fanfare) now 3-4 years later the plans have been put on hold because the money has apparently been spent on something else. This however is not the Labour Govt's fault.. no they have played the blame game and stated that it was the Local Health Authority that spent the money. Sorry who is in charge of the health authority?
 
I look on it like this. The last time the Torys sent me to war I had 200 rounds of ammunition, grenades, 66's and so much kit I had to bin some just so I could carry all the rest. The last time Labour sent me to war I had 10 rounds on ammunition, no body armour and had to spend several hundred pounds of my own money to buy kit I should have been issued.
Cnuts.
 
Speedy said:
I look on it like this. The last time the Torys sent me to war I had 200 rounds of ammunition, grenades, 66's and so much kit I had to bin some just so I could carry all the rest. The last time Labour sent me to war I had 10 rounds on ammunition, no body armour and had to spend several hundred pounds of my own money to buy kit I should have been issued.
Cnuts.

That says it all, really.
 
Speedy, I like the cut of your jib!

Same has happened to me, Conservative.....your a walking rambo.

New Labliar, lucky to have 5 rounds
 
Speedy hit the nail on the Head.

They have actively put the lives of Soldiers at risk with deliberate decisions. I was involved in a small way in the GW2 build up, and we were forbidden - by that nice Mr Brown, our next PM - to commit ANY money on kit or logistic enablers until we were told it was 'safe' to do so. Safe for who?

Result = kit bought too late/not at all, all decent transport already grabbed by the Septics, etc., you know the story.

PURELY caused by a man too afraid of his own party to act with any balls.

As Spedy says, Cnuts, the lot of 'em.
 
Oh - such short memories (even you speedy)
Lest we forget:
Falklands - Let's scrap Bulwark, Endurance etc and make sure the guys have DMS boots, plastic socks- 1st cases of trench foot since Korea
GW1 (late summer 1990)- no CR engines, no desert combats, no body armour... followed by Options for Change and a few rousing amalgamations (apologies for a bit of historical licence)

Don't get me wrong. The current regime are liars and scoundrels of the highest order. But they sit on a decent economic record and people (backed by re-mortgages and the property bubble/boom) feel wealthy, and only care about saving the Blankshires if it doesn't cost them anything.
Any new regime will have the same pressure to balance books and keep the proles happy. Result - more shafting for the troops. All the parties have some decent coves in their ranks - but in opposition it is easy to make expansive promises and as we have seen in the last few years (just like previous governments) it is even harder to be principled in power and deliver on promises.

The success of BuffHoon etc over the past few years only serves to set a model of manipulation (of the armed forces) that the other parties envy and will seek to emulate if they won an election.

The only good news I can see is that - whilst we are getting severely stressed in the Army - the RN and RAF seem to be making even more of a horlicks of defending their interests. I'd bet on only 1 aircraft carrier and not many JSF at all in the longer run....
 
Unlike Specky I am old enough to remember other Labour Govts. Yes the bodies waiting to be buried are well remembered, but what has slipped out of the Army's collective memory is the appalling pay of the late 70's when Cpls claimed the then equivalent of income support whilst living in shit conditions covering for the firemen,refuse collectors or any other overpaid public body whipprd into a frenzy by the local party apparatchics.

Maggie paid the Forces a decent wage. Yes! Major and his crew tried to save money from the peace dividend but they were trying to restructure the forces for the nineties. The current bunch of trots, social workers and amalgamated piss-ant ******* haven't a clue. I would rather rely on an UOR than B-liar and his mates.
 
I belive this contry goes in cycles.

About 20 years of Tories, then a new crop of younger voters get the vote, and they think "We have only ever seen a tory govenment, and becuase we never listed in class we don't know how bad the last labour govenment was like, so lets get them in."

1-2 govenments later: "Darn, now we know why our parents Didn't vote for these fools, I guess our Parents DO know something. Better note vote for Labour again"

Then we have 20 years of torry govenment, until the cycle starts anew (Yeah I know, this theroy is about to get shot down).

Oh and as we're mud flinging about army funding, Hands up who has an A2, Body armour and a resprator?

And look at the Sudden revision of shelf lifes on Ration packs, Gas mask filters and EUROMUX. It could never be cost driven could it?
 
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