Help with this picture please, Irish Guards post WW1, St. Patricks Day?

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bokkatankie

Guest
#1
Great photo, all 4 are related to my family, 3 brothers and their Father. Pretty sure it is post WW1 as youngest brother was only born in 1899, so question is the medals, there seem to be too many for the usual Tom, Dick and Harry and they appear to be wearing ribbons but no medals would it be coronation stuff?

I should add that the Father was also Guards (Irish only formed in 1901?), served in Egypt, Aden and I think Liberia, he seems to have quite a collection with many bars, may have also served in Boer War?

Thanks in advance for all assistance:
 

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#2
I'm not a medals guru, but I do know of chaps awarded (but not yet presented) medals will wear the full ribbon without the actual medal.

Looking at these guys, the old boy might well have been in South Africa and Sudan (Grens ?) - each of which ISTRC had numerous bars

C/Sjt seems to have a medal (S Africa?) and some sort of star (CDG perhaps - were the French quicker off the mark?), plus 2 or3 ribbons (WW1?).

The youngest perhaps didn't make it overseas, but must have risen quickly if it's early 20 and he's a L/Sjt. Maybe a good instructor so stayed at the depot.


Oh - photo taken St Patrick's Day - shamrock visible left lapel and right of uniform buttons (poking out of sash).

My guess - 17 March 1920/21 ?
 
#3
The Irish Guards were formed on 1st April 1900 by order of HRH Queen Victoria to commemorate the bravery of the Irish people who fought in the Boer war. The Irish Guards played a major part in both World Wars, winning a total of six Victoria Crosses including the last to be presented in the Second World War and have seen armed conflict in many parts of the world since 1945.

On 21st April 1900, the first recruit, James O'Brien of Limerick, was enlisted and many followed as a free transfer was offered to all Irishmen serving not only in the Guards Brigade but also from the line Regiments.

The Irish Guards are presented with shamrock on every St Patrick's day (17th March) by a member of the Royal Family. This dates back to 1901 when HRH Princess Alexandra presented the Battalion with it for the first time. Until recent years this duty has been carried out by HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother but the honor has now been passed to other members of the Royal family.

The Irish Guards, originally nicknamed "Bob's Own" after Lord Roberts, the First Colonel of the Regiment, are affectionately and widely known as "The Micks". No other Regiment of Foot Guards has such a widely accepted nickname.


This might explain why they have so many bits and bobs
 
B

bokkatankie

Guest
#4
I'm not a medals guru, but I do know of chaps awarded (but not yet presented) medals will wear the full ribbon without the actual medal.

Looking at these guys, the old boy might well have been in South Africa and Sudan (Grens ?) - each of which ISTRC had numerous bars

C/Sjt seems to have a medal (S Africa?) and some sort of star (CDG perhaps - were the French quicker off the mark?), plus 2 or3 ribbons (WW1?).

The youngest perhaps didn't make it overseas, but must have risen quickly if it's early 20 and he's a L/Sjt. Maybe a good instructor so stayed at the depot.


Oh - photo taken St Patrick's Day - shamrock visible left lapel and right of uniform buttons (poking out of sash).

My guess - 17 March 1920/21 ?
Thanks have been digging some more:

Old boy born 1869 died in 1952 (83) at Royal Hospital Chelsea.

Eldest son: born 1892 Cairo, died 1921 (29), South Africa Hospital Richmond (Surrey?)
Next son: born 1896 Aden, died 1934 (38 ) Cambridge Military Hospital, Aldershot
Youngest: born 1900 - Richmond, died 1942 (42) Military Hospital, Copthorne, Shrewsbury.
 
#5
Fantastic photo, and all wearing their shamrock so taken on Paddys day.
I agree it is post just 1918, as two are wearing the 1914 or 14/15 stars (which were issued in 1917). Interestingly there are two possible DCMs, and that will only be confirmed if the photos can be blown up. Slightly concerned that the central Lance Sgt has no medals, even UK service would have given him a British War Medal.
Cracking photo, and what a set of whiskers on the elderly gent sitting down who has a Queens South Africa medal (1899 to 1901).
 
#6
Sad that all 3 pre-deceased him.

Wonder whether you can only put up a medal board when already wearing a medal ?. Any Master Stitch on-line ?
 
#7
The BWM and Victory medal were not approved until July and Sep 1919. Perhaps they had not got around to issuing the actual medals by St Patrick's Day 1920, just the ribbons? Certainly seems strange the Star is there without the others.


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#8
Light bulb moment.
Try the British Medals Forum • Information they are experts and would love the challenge!
You can also access their service record for about £3 a shot, and that will give you their full service records dates of awards and wounding's. This is a very dangerous place to be, it will suddenly becomes all consuming!
The old boy will be interesting, and I look forward to hearing about his past.
Best wishes, we salute you in your quest.
 
#9
The chap on the left of the photo. What is that big badge on his arm? It looks to be made of 3 different elements including crossed swords?
 
B

bokkatankie

Guest
#12
Got both DCM;s now!

Father awarded DCM in 1918, having transferred to Labour Corps from IG as CSM

Son also CSM awarded DCM also in 1918 in IG.

The family name is Murphy, quite remarkable family!

Have got both sets of service records for Father. I was getting confused on Labour Corps Irish Guards and there being 2 DCM's thanks for all your help!

One last picture, younger son again:
 

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bokkatankie

Guest
#14
Regarding his move to the Labour Corps, this is probably as a result of wounding, and being unfit for a front line unit.
Found this which might help as it gives the location of the various Irish Guard Battalions during the First War
Irish Guards - Forces War Records
He was discharged medically unfit in 1904, re-enlisted 1915, discharged medically unfit 1918!
 

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B

bokkatankie

Guest
#18
WO 2 Murphy is also on the LSGC register Search Form - WW2 Talk
But they have him down as a Tailor, a very brave one if that is the case!
Trade on re-enlistment was Tailor! LSGC is listed on his records. He has 2 sets of records so will take a bit of time to collate his history, thanks again for all assistance. Great morning!!!!

Younger son is recorded as have been killed in WW2 but on home service, he may be the one family used to say was cut in half by Sten Gun accident!!!!
 
#19
What a result, and what a distinguished family. Two DCMs is rather impressive as they are ranked as the second highest service gallantry awards.
Enjoy yourself, we won't see you on the forum for a while!
 
#20
Military Medal was introduced to save money, as DCM carried a cash (and annuity?) benefit. Or so I once read - Lynne McDonald?
 

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