Help with some research

#1
Hopefully somebody will be able to help....

What I am after is a breakdown of the typical recruit training syllabus for the Army in the 1920's - early 30's. (week by week)

Also I would be most grateful if any body knows where i can find examples of the various dress states worn by a Highland regiment of that period and leading up to WWII - especially dress states for Garrison duty in Singapore.

Any additional info re the Gordon Highlanders during the period 1928 - 1942 (especially the 2nd Battalion) most gratefully received

And before anybody says it - I have contacted the museum and they have been halpful - but cannot provide much info

This is all in the name of research into a relative who was captured when Singapore fell and survived the railway and other horrors.

MAny thanks

L_G
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
#2
I am having an argument on line with a US Marine regarding the 1908 Lord Haldane induced 'Mad Minute' to the Infantry training Syllabus of that year. Does anyone on here know the rules of the practice. Please ignore Wikapedia, they are miles out on the rules. Does someone know?
 
#4
Google search stuff like
Field manual training filetype(colon)PDF army
Etc on a theme, some good stuff out there
(Colon) is obviously a colon but on this site does emojis
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
#5
Spode Greetings and a happy New Year! I need to know the basic rules of the Range Practice 'The Mad Minute' as defined at the time of its use. Below I have written what I think it was:

Soldier in prone position unsupported (No sandbag for forearm support))
Rifle loaded with ten rounds and sight set at 300 yds
a further ten rounds were in Chargers in shoulder pouches, pouches fastened.
On command 'Watch and shoot' target appeared at 300 yds. for one minute.
The firer fired his 20 rounds, ten from the mag, afterwards reloading the 10 rds from his pouches.
The target was a four foot square screen with a circular 'outer' 'inner' and a bull size of 12 inches round. (300mm)
 
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Ian807

Guest
#6
Hopefully somebody will be able to help....

What I am after is a breakdown of the typical recruit training syllabus for the Army in the 1920's - early 30's. (week by week)

Also I would be most grateful if any body knows where i can find examples of the various dress states worn by a Highland regiment of that period and leading up to WWII - especially dress states for Garrison duty in Singapore.

Any additional info re the Gordon Highlanders during the period 1928 - 1942 (especially the 2nd Battalion) most gratefully received

And before anybody says it - I have contacted the museum and they have been halpful - but cannot provide much info

This is all in the name of research into a relative who was captured when Singapore fell and survived the railway and other horrors.

MAny thanks

L_G
Not a very helpful Museum there. Sensible general suggestions most of which you may not need: there is a load of info on Far East Prisoners of War (FEPOW). Look up the Wartime Memories Project, The National Archives, FIBIWiki and Forces War Records. Plenty of books on the GHs and POWs, you could try Trevor Royle's but you've a lot of searching to do, after all it's 'research'. Also try the COFEPOW Database, National Army Museum. 2nd Battalion was in Blighty from 1919 to 1933, moved to Gibraltar and then in 1937 to Singapore. Good luck.
 
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Ian807

Guest
#7
I am having an argument on line with a US Marine regarding the 1908 Lord Haldane induced 'Mad Minute' to the Infantry training Syllabus of that year. Does anyone on here know the rules of the practice. Please ignore Wikapedia, they are miles out on the rules. Does someone know?
Don't quote me on any of this. Probably started by Lord Roberts, musketry training and tactical reforms were based on the experiences of the Boer War and Boer 'snapshooters'. The 15 aimed-shot ‘mad minute’ was enshrined in Musketry Regulations 1909/1910, in several parts; the mad minute is possibly in Part 1, since re-printed and possibly archived somewhere or available from the Royal Armouries.

The original grading exercise required the soldier to fire prone at a second class figure target 4 ft sq, at 300 yards with a Lee-Enfield service rifle and score at least 15 hits on target within one minute. One in the chamber at start and reloading from the bandolier. The record was something like 38 in to a 12 inch Bullseye???. In the Regs: Table A is the recruits' course, and Table B is the annual refresher for trained soldiers. Soldiers were graded according to scores.

The SMLE was in use well before WW1 and Mad minute was used at Mons, August 1914. IIRC mad minute was out of date by Mons, though the Brits probably out-shot the French and Germans. There are plenty of books on tactical reforms to the British Army during the empire.
 
#8
Spode Greetings and a happy New Year! I need to know the basic rules of the Range Practice 'The Mad Minute' as defined at the time of its use. Below I have written what I think it was:

Soldier in prone position unsupported (No sandbag for forearm support))
Rifle loaded with ten rounds and sight set at 300 yds
a further ten rounds were in Chargers in shoulder pouches, pouches fastened.
On command 'Watch and shoot' target appeared at 300 yds. for one minute.
The firer fired his 20 rounds, ten from the mag, afterwards reloading the 10 rds from his pouches.
The target was a four foot square screen with a circular 'outer' 'inner' and a bull size of 12 inches round. (300mm)
A 1915 version had it being done on a miniature range
http://www.exhibits1.museums.org.nz/ww1/0000_100_0524_the_musketry_teacher_for_web.pdf
Page 35
 

overopensights

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Book Reviewer
#9
Lan807. Greetings, and thank you so very much for your very helpful info, you have given me enough to see me through what I need to know. The whole argument is about how many rounds were required to fired during the 'minute' some say twenty and other say fifteen?
 
#10
Lan807. Greetings, and thank you so very much for your very helpful info, you have given me enough to see me through what I need to know. The whole argument is about how many rounds were required to fired during the 'minute' some say twenty and other say fifteen?
There was a thread covering this subject a while ago. I'll see if I can find it and get back to you.
 
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Ian807

Guest
#13
For the 15/20 shots thing, we'd need the Musketry regs; unfortunately it has been mythologised and wittered about for a long time on multiple sites. Even 'know-alls' on Historum don't know for sure, but a Mod on the Lee-Enfield site wrote the following explanation; I own the same book he quotes from:
Every now & then the topic of the "real" Mad Minute comes up. There are U-tube videos, countless wittering posts & so on, but the rather sad truth is that most of the information on it is lost, missing or was simply passed down by word of mouth a bit like tribal histories.

FWIW here's everything I've been able to find, dig up or read up on it. Enjoy!

“Mad minute” was a term used by British riflemen during training to describe scoring 15 hits onto a target at 300 yd (274.3 m) within one minute using a bolt-action rifle. It was not uncommon during the First World War for riflemen to greatly exceed this score. Many riflemen could average 30+ shots, while the record, set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall was 38 hits.

[ Ian V. Hogg, The Encyclopedia of Weaponry, Sterling Publishing, New York 2006.]
Ian V. Hogg, but it's something at least. OT, seems the OP never came back. And Dan Snow?....snigger.
 
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Ian807

Guest
#15
Ian807: Excellent and thank you.
No worries, it's military history :) Fortunately the post on the Lee-Enfield site mentions Small Arms Training Volume No1, pamphlet No1 and goes into the targets, rules and drills. Hard to find an original pamphlet from WW1, they're either destroyed, dumped, or sold like medals. But there might be one or two in Museums (NAM) or at the IWM, or even a very rare example on E-Bay, plenty from WW2.

It appears the mad minute was taught at the British Army School of Musketry, later the SASC - there was a Small Arms School Corps after WW1- at Hythe, Kent, open from 1854 according to the Army Lists, and a supermarket now of course. Instruction was excellent, and Colour Sergeant Bourne DCM of ZULU was once its Adjutant. There was a Land Warfare Centre at Warminster but I understand its collection isn't open to the public. Shame.

Regards
 

overopensights

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Book Reviewer
#17
Lan807: That was very interesting in particular the Hythe images, I went through there in 1963 and again in 67. It put my career in order. Csgt Bourne was of course 24th, so was I, The regimental history was quite drilled into us. In our Bn in the late 60s we had Cpl Hook, the grandson of Henry Hook, we had Capt Hitch, grandson of Hitch VC and a Lt Col Gonville-Bromheads commanded. I have cracked the problem with the quantity of rounds, it was 15. Regards. Brecon Barracks The Home of the 24th is up for sale.
 
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Ian807

Guest
#18
Lan807: That was very interesting in particular the Hythe images, I went through there in 1963 and again in 67. It put my career in order. Csgt Bourne was of course 24th, so was I, The regimental history was quite drilled into us. In our Bn in the late 60s we had Cpl Hook, the grandson of Henry Hook, we had Capt Hitch, grandson of Hitch VC and a Lt Col Gonville-Bromheads commanded. I have cracked the problem with the quantity of rounds, it was 15. Regards. Brecon Barracks The Home of the 24th is up for sale.
Henry Hook VC; Lt Col Frank Bourne OBE DCM refused the VC in favour of a commission apparently. Brecon Bks, open since 1805 & another casualty of the MoD.
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
#19
Lan807, That's great and thank you, the 'clips' are very interesting, the one that appears to be of Mons or near there seems to be the 'Mad Minute' in use. I was 24th the same Regt as C/sgt Bourne. Regtl history was quite drummed into us. I have good memories of Hythe with a course in 1962 and another in 67, it quite sorted my career. The consensus on the mad minute is 15 rds per min, prone at 300yds, . regards,
 

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