Help with accuracy training

Discussion in 'Shooting, Hunting and Fishing' started by Gadgwah, Mar 17, 2011.

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  1. I could do with some help as a friend should be pulling <1" groups with the 22-250 and 243 he has, (especially with the quality of the scopes) at 150m.
    On one day he will get a slight bottom left to top right drift, on another day it might be the reverse.
    Is there anywhere (book etc), that states that mistake number 1 is due to not a firm enough grip with the right, (trigger) hand etc.
    I know there were things like that with the SLR, (God rest his soul.) But do not know if this kind of thing equates to a "standard" hunting rifle.

    All comments gratefully received, (As this is not the NAAFI, I think I can get away with that.)

  2. Marksmanship - Wikibooks, open books for an open world
    As he's using an optic sight, is his eye relief the same every time? Is it properly fitted in the mounts? The other point is slipping in his support arm through movement of the elbow
  3. This is the sort of information I am after as it can lead into what he is doing wrong. ( i.e getting 4" groups.)
    Cheers for that, I will follow that up.

  4. If the groups are that small but still spread out, check that the wind isn't varying while he's firing the group... are the groups consistent regardless of which of his two rifles he uses, or does each rifle give a different result?

    There are coaching guides that say "this sort of spread may be caused by X" but generally they give several reasons, not just one. Lots of dry-firing training before live firing, that's the answer :excited:
  5. main problem is that I cannot get him to fire 3 to 5 rounds without him wanting to tinker with the sights, okay maybe 3 round max.
    But they are turning into 4" groups without a discenible MPI. (I was a "shoot to kill" coach many years ago.)
    Ie there is no real constancy there, I am trying to help him with the position and hold etc, but when he does get this "drift" it would be useful to be able to tell him it is his right hand hold, or whatever, that is causing the problem. (He might then effin listen.)
    He has the atitude that if he can hit a beermat at 150m he will kill the deer. does not always happen.
  6. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    His beermat attitude is right as taught for deer stalking in the UK although you and I know its not really good enough to guarantee a good shot every time. Stalking fox or deer means like combat shooting much is done off balance snap shooting at 100 yards plus. You dont get two chances very often with live quarry!
  7. First thing is to ensure that everything is tight on the rifle, bedding screws, sight mounts etc. Then check that nothing is loose in the scope. People will insist on fitting cheap airgun scopes on centrefire rifles. Change the scope for a good make if necessary. Check that the barrel is not bearing on the fore-end anywhere it shouldn't.

    Get a sandbag, rest the rifle and fire a ten shot group. You should then have an idea of what the rifle/ammunition combination is capable of. Once you know this you will be in a better position to decide what the shooter is doing wrong.

    I struggled for months with a crap .22 rifle when I took up shooting after a long absence and was ready to give up before it became apparent that the problem was the rifle.
  8. Let another shooter have a go. I get asked to "fix" a lot of rifles in my particular speciality, and tend to find that its actually a shooter problem in about 75% of cases...

    A lot of people simply don't comprehend basic marksmanship principles, and are thus unable to shoot a careful and deliberate test group.
  9. trigger control & getting over-excited are the 2 most common problems with people I train (dynamic pistol mostly). Just beat (almost) all of them in a round of Service Pistol B (?) wrong-handed and aiming off last night.
  10. Actually, 4T, can I pick your brains on something: the people I train seem clinically incapable of retaining basic skills over any period of time. At the end of a session I'll have them all getting the basic stuff right. But then a couple of weeks later, they have regressed to the point where we need to go over basic stuff again.

    And talking about basic stuff, I'm meaning things like:
    -- pressing the trigger (they start to bitch slap)
    -- letting go of the trigger between shots, causing them to bitch slap it.
    -- bizarre supporting hand positions
    -- following through
    -- one guy has an incredible reflex that makes him push the pistol towards the target is if he wants to bayonet it while pushing his hips towards the target as if he wants to f*ck it.

    I tell them how they can practice these things at home with dry training (we often end up doing dry training on the range for basic stuff like "if you let the trigger forward gently you will feel how it goes click when it resets. Move your finger forward until that happens, and then press again" which gets the response "oh yes, you can feel it. I never knew!"), and how they should use time when training statically at 25 m to practice these things, but I'm guessing that they don't do that.

    They want to get onto more exciting stuff, but every time we try it they suddenly forget basic marksmanship principles, and we're back to acoustic satisfaction and turning ammunition into brass.

    Have you had this problem with any of your coachees, and how do you deal with it?

    I have the suspicion that they get a little "excited" at the words "load and make ready"...
  11. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    I know the feeling Stoatman, sadly buck fever hits us all and I for one would be a crappier pistol shot now than when it was the norm to compete here rather than "study" under section 7.
  12. (Evil grin) find a young lass (or lad, but it works better with women) who is willing to listen, and put them in the coaching group. Make sure that said beginner does the dry firing you advise. Let them notice that said young'un catches up, and quickly starts to outperform them... You could get them to chip in a token amount of cash, best performance takes the pot... Be careful not to cause humiliation, a hint of embarrassment is enough for most.

    Basically, they have to understand that you don't get instant marksmanship like you get instant coffee (as my old Pipe-Major put it).

    It's also worth pointing out that from a sports science point of view, you improve better at the early stages of skill acquisition by training in more, shorter sessions than in fewer, longer ones (this only changes around once you're a lot more competent).

    I will confess to having been "that example" in the days before H&S - I passed my pistol APWT at age 12ish, after five minutes coaching. Something about Dad (as the section WO) suggesting that his son could shoot better than some of said section... and a fiver into the slush fund for anyone who lost the bet. Fund gained £15, section took the hint and improved...
  13. Thanks. I shall give it some thought as to how I could use that trick with the people I have available.

    It was borrowing a crappy Gamo break-open pneumatic pistol from University over a set of holidays and dry firing it incessantly at a blank wall that took me from being middle-of-the-road in the University club up to the best by a fair margin, to much astonishment from the others! It's just trying to impress this on them... even seeing what I did with the wrong hand didn't make much impact (I angered my right shoulder a couple of months ago and I have been taking it VERY easy with pistol since, but rifle is okay. I also saw it as a good opportunity to improve my weak hand shooting)