Help Requested

Discussion in 'Infantry' started by Hescoheed, Nov 21, 2005.

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  1. Dear All
    This is a rather bizarre request, but I am looking for clarification on the RCO orders/statement given at the end of a range shoot.

    I am a TA Troopy who hasn't attended RMQ course as of yet, but has completed CMCQC. In my civy job I am a Forensic Engineer and had a case land on my desk apparently due to my experience of spending many happy days on ranges and on ops.

    Due to the confidentiality in this case I am unable to go into any real detail about the circumstances. However, the general sketch is that a person connected to the armed forces has been found in the possession of a small number of 5.56 live rounds that have been "collected" over a period of 10 years or so. His excuse for not handing them in after he had found them on his person/in his kit and after he had given the declaration " I have no live rounds...etc...Sir, is that he was too scared to hand them in. This is due to the RCO's statement at the end of the shoot "it is an offence.....etc. He claims that had the statement ten years ago had the caveat, that I hear all the time, "....if however, you do find any live rounds etc, after you leave the range then you should hand them into a responsible person as soon as you can and nothing more MAY be said", he would have handed them in straight away. He reckons this caveat is only a couple of years old and the rounds he had were prior to that (batch codes confirm this). Therefore he was not too keen to hand over the rounds so that he could be given a left hook with Queens Regs.

    I know, I can hear all the groaning.....so why didn't he chuck them off his local bridge etc...well there is a possible explanation but that unfortunately is not for discussion on this forum (case confidentiality).

    I have looked at PAM 21 and Queens Regs and had a flick through the AOSP but can't find the exact wording a RCO would use at the end of a range/live/blank firing exercise. I have had a chat with RMQ qualified officers and seniors and even asked our regular QMSI. The wording seems to be given in a presentation during the RMQC but with no reference to any PAMs etc. Would I be correct in assuming that it may be in one of the JSPs as the other two services use the same range procedures?

    Having mulled it over with my SSM we both agree that by stating that it is an offence to have in your possession (off the range) any live, blank, pyro, parts there-of (as per the guideline paragraph in Queens Regs), by adding the caveat "....nothing more MAY be said" contradicts the message that it is a serious offence. Our QMSI suggested that the caveat may a recent thing within past 2-3 years to put less pressure on persons that may get home to find the missus holding up a live round that she found in the washer-dryer.

    Everyone knows the wording but:
    Q1: can anyone please tell me where to find it written down in black and white?
    Q2: when, if at all, did the wording start to incorporate the "may" part of the caveat?

    The job landed on my desk as the ex-reg ATO snr officer I work with also didn't know where to find it either!
    Thank you in advance.
    [align=justify]
     
  2. Q1 Don't know, maaybe in an old copy of Pam21
    Q2 "Nothing further may be said" can be viewed as an amnesty, in that sometimes oversights happen and this gives the person concerned an opportunity to recitfy what could later be viewed as an offence. Certainly it was part of RMQ 1-3 at RMAS in early 90s.

    10 years of fear at declarations, me thinks he was taking the p*ss. any spare parts for sa80s missing or odd looking bits of pipe on his metal working bench?
     
  3. Thanks for the help

    The idea was to go into PAM21 and find the declaration/section, refer to the updated insert list at the front of the PAM that would tell me when the new (if it did) version was changed. More fool me thinking it would be that simple. If it is in the RMQ 1-3, is that an official document or will there be reference to PAM/chapter/section etc. I can't believe it is not written down in B&W in some JSP/PAM/reg.

    Would love to tell you more about the case, but your concerns about other parts found etc, is well in hand.

    Cheers
     
  4. Have you thought about contacting the SASC guys at TAG(UK)? They run the RMQ courses and should know PAM 21 back to front.
     
  5. The 'caveat' to the declaration was extant some forty odd years ago though I don't think you'll find it published anywhere - it was more of a common sense thing and certainly not universal.
     
  6. Cheers for that, was on my list of people to contact. You can never have digits in too many pies.
     
  7. Fang_Farrier

    Fang_Farrier LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    I seem to recall being told on several occasions during my career that if I did find any rounds, blank or otherwise I was to hand them in as soon as discovered.
    It must have been said by RCO or similar, never recall being in fear if I found a round somewhere and handed it in.
     

  8. I was lead to believe that the statement was to end " ........responsible person and further investigations will take place"

    At least that was the guidence given by SASC at ITC.
     
  9. Did my OASAA in mid 80s and the bit about handing in found rounds etc later was taught then.

    I was always of the impression that this was to allow for the fact that it is possible that these items could end up in all kinds of unusual places by accident and it is not reasonable to expect the soldier to search every nook and cranny of his equipment just in case.

    Have had soldiers return rounds to me personally a couple of days after a range day.
    "Found it in me skid lid" "It was right at the bottom of me bergan" etc etc

    Pain in the bum getting them back into the ammo store, but never had to carry out "further investigations" as it was only 1 or 2 never a mag full.
     
  10. Cheers guys

    My view is quite simple and it involves moral courage. The subject, however, has other personal admin issues and I am gonna leave it to the legal team to argue his case. Hopefully the SASC will be able to point me in the direction of the written doctrine.

    Your help is as always much appreciated. I was told a story by an ex-national service fella who found a full mag of .303 in his haversac after an exercise and was heading home on leave. He was looking for a smoke, just as the train went over the high level bridge out of Newcastle. He had the window of the carriage down as fast as you like. He said he didn't mean to hit the poor sod beneath the bridge minding his own business fishing for his supper, chance in a million shot. Hit his tackle bag before bouncing off into the river. I have also been told that at one point the lakes at Sandhurst were out of bounds due to the ordnance danger, after years of officer cadets throwing belts and loose rounds of ammo into them after finding them after an excercise. Would love to know if that was true.

    Thanks again
     
  11. back in the late 80s before I did basic TA training did range weekend with those old fashinoned now combats the ones that came with out the corners sewn down.
    fastfwd to basingbourne lesson one SLR find what I thought was a stone turns out to be a live 9mm round.
    oh shit.
    cpl rattles through declaration at great speed and is not impressed to be handed 9mm round.
    nothing more was said.
    the bloke with the live rounds is screwed its his own fault