Help needed to ID rifle

#1
Posted on behalf of another ARRSEr currently stuck in the 'Stan with no means of uploading the pics...

"Can anyone help identify this, please? It's been presented to someone out here, and I need some info (rough model type, place of manufacture, year of manufacture) in order to get it sent home legally."

Initial thoughts are that it is an Enfield P14 (or presumably could be an M1917). 5 round magazine, and certainly looks like a modified Mauser action.



 
#3
OllieReeder said:
Posted on behalf of another ARRSEr currently stuck in the 'Stan with no means of uploading the pics...

"Can anyone help identify this, please? It's been presented to someone out here, and I need some info (rough model type, place of manufacture, year of manufacture) in order to get it sent home legally."

Initial thoughts are that it is an Enfield P14 (or presumably could be an M1917). 5 round magazine, and certainly looks like a modified Mauser action.



It is as you suggest a Pattern 14 or Model1917. Hard to say from the pictures but I would suggest P14 going by the look of the action - looks slightly shorter than the M'17. The extractors have a slightly different look too but the easiest way to tell would be whether it is stamped "US model of 1917". Either could have US Ordnance Board "Flaming grenade" proof marks as far as I know.
A new top guard should be available somewhere.

In the UK it would be classified as Section 1 in either case. You could argue a S58(2) but you'd have a fight on your hands.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#4
The hump of the magazine should indicate a P14 and its a Remington made one, worth about 100 pounds ish and I do have a spare handguard I think! Oh and section 1.
 
#5
Looks like a P14 in .303", judging by the length of the rearsight and the fact its got volley sights (the stalk thing on the left side of the receiver. BTW, this should fold forward, not backwards). The .30-06 M17 has a shorter rearsight and no volley sights.

Its a section one firearm, so you'd need a firearm certificate back in UK.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#6
Hey I looked but couldnt see the volley sight, now I know why!
 
#7
Although all of the P14s were made in one of the three US factories, they went through a British military acceptance process and received a War Office inspection mark on the left receiver wall. The .30-06 M17s have a US Ordnance "Flaming Bomb" mark in this location instead.

 
#9
Who are you calling a Fat Boy....?!

Actually its just a normal stock. I had a Fat Boy P14, but sold it recently. Ugly, can i interest you in a nice sporterised P14? It has nice chequering, and I'm sure it would make a good stalking rifle - make short work of those aggresive muntjacs, etc...

 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#10
Now now you know I am looking for something not quite sporterised. I rather fancy a BSA built on a P14 action in 7mm Mauser. I have a box of 10 receivers so there is an opportunity if anyone is interested in knocking up a faux mid 30's sporter!
 
#11
ugly said:
Now now you know I am looking for something not quite sporterised. I rather fancy a BSA built on a P14 action in 7mm Mauser. I have a box of 10 receivers so there is an opportunity if anyone is interested in knocking up a faux mid 30's sporter!
Which make of receiver are they? I'm never touching an Eddystone ever again!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#12
There are some eddystones and Remingtons (both made by Remington by the way) but I dont remember any Winchesters that said I have used an ERA and it definetly hadnt been through Ma Parkers!
 
#13
Would one of the boards Experts, please tell more on the P14/17 ?
john
I know I should search eleswhere, but please don't say Google/Wikipi, I'd like an expert view and I know the board has them.
 
#14
jonwilly said:
Would one of the boards Experts, please tell more on the P14/17 ?
john
I know I should search eleswhere, but please don't say Google/Wikipi, I'd like an expert view and I know the board has them.
Well I doubt anyone is going to type up the whole history. You can find the basics yourself. If you have a specific question though I'm sure it will be answered.
 
#15
Thanks to everyone - have yet to raise our friend in theatre, but I know he will be suitably grateful. I also managed to find my father's 1942 small arms manual last night, so now have the identification mark positions and types for the three different factories (Remington Arms Co, Remington Arms Union and Winchester Repeating Arms Co). As mentioned above, it certainly looks to be the first of these.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#16
I have some very good reference works and notes on the series, basically Vickers were contracted to produce a .276 calibre mauser stylle rifle as a result of lessons learnt in the first Boer war. Those same lessons were actually and quite foruitously used to develop the Short Rifle No1. The P13 was based on the lessons and the desire of the Generals to control rates of fire which were thoi=ught to be excessive, the mag cut off on the No1 is an example of this.
The P13 underwent troop trials and several issues were raised including excessive muzzle blast and t5hroat erosion. This was an issue with the ammo so further work was called for.
Just as they went off to do this Germany invaded Belgium and as the Yanks say SHTF.
Vickers were instructed to produce the rifle in .303 but failed miserably due to existing contracts. The machinary (tooling) was shipped to the US and Remington set up 2 plants ro make it and Winchester 1. The ERA plant was actually a loco factory converted for rifle making. The rifles were shipped in decent quantities by mid 1916 but by then the UK forces had enough SMLEs and the rifle was issued for training and second line use. By 1917 when the Yanks entered the war the British Govt was cancelling the contract and Remington and Winchester approached the US WD and offered there rifles in .30 06 as Springfield arsenal couldnt cope with demand. The US troops deployed to France in WW1 were arguably armed with more M1917 rifles than M1903 rifles so a British design was used. There is a list of interchangeable parts and many were prized for target and sniping use. The Rifle No.3 as it became known was the interwar sniping rifle usually only Winchester rifles, with the Fine rear sight and refurbed to Weedon Standard. This rifle in the later stages of WW1 was accepted to be more accurate without the scope than the No1 Mk111 with a scope!
Perhaps an arrsepedia entry is forthcoming!
 

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