Help me argue with Lefties who see no threat in an Iranian bomb

#1
The dullards elsewhere pretend that Irans desire to go Nuclear is not an issue. I think they'd use it to destroy Israel.

Can I have some quick notes as to other reasons why Iran should not be allowed this capability, examples of their actions ( I know about EFPs ) etc etc

TIA

BB
 
#2
Iran going nuclear? i think Israel will use it to destroy Iran..........
 
#3
BB. Accepting all the "reasons" why Iran shouldn't be allowed to develop nuclear facilities. Why have "we" (with our bombs) the right to stop them? Especially when half the Indian sub-continent seems to have nukes.
 
#5
The dullards elsewhere pretend that Irans desire to go Nuclear is not an issue. I think they'd use it to destroy Israel.

Can I have some quick notes as to other reasons why Iran should not be allowed this capability, examples of their actions ( I know about EFPs ) etc etc

TIA

BB
You want to convince people but don't have the arguments at hand to do so? Good luck.

Or is this one of your "classic-fishing-for-a-bite-thread"?
 
#6
Compared to the existing nuclear powers in the region Iran getting the bomb isn't that worrying. The mere fact that Pakistan has the bomb should keep everyone awake at night and their alleged links to the Saudis are hardly calculated to make one feel any better. Then of course there's India, but if I lived next door to Pakistan I'd want some security too.

And don't forget the Israelis of course, if you've ever been to Masada or talked to people in the IDF about the oath they swore on top of it as dawn came up you'd realise that while they probably wouldn't start a nuclear exchange they would end it by firing off their entire stockpile. There's no way the current Iranian regime is that stupid.

The real reason Iran wants the bomb is that nuclear powers (eg North Korea) get treated with respect; non-nuclear powers (eq Iraq) get turned into Washington's bitch if and when Washington chooses. The US are currently busy of course, but as they pull out of Iraq and AFG it frees up troops for some other damn fool intervention. The Iranians would rather it wasn't them. Of course the real deterrent against that is the ability to surge the IRGCN and block the Straits.

The real threat to Israel is a perception that a real threat exists, leading to the economy disappearing as reservists are called up for extensive periods and mass emigration sucks people and capital out.
 
#7
I've had BB on ignore for quite a while, but removed him from the ignore list to see what he'd posted........ He's going back on ignore.
 
#9
If the people you're arguing against are CND types, call them out on their hypocrisy. If they disapprove of the proliferation of nuclear weapons, why are they happy for Iran to proliferate nuclear weapons? The West (and Russia. And Pakistan. And India. And China.) already have the Bomb and it's not going to go away - that stable door slammed open a long time ago. They can, however, stop the further spread of these destructive weapons... so why are they being so selective in their condemnation?

A fair proportion of the people who publicly advocate "nuclear disarmament" believe nothing of the sort, but use it as a thin mask to disguise their anti-Americanism.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#10
B_B,

and of course you can always refer said 'Lefties' to this article from a US based group called the Wisconsin Project :

Israel: Plutonium Production

Israel: Plutonium Production

The Risk Report
Volume 2 Number 4 (July-August 1996)

Israel makes plutonium for atomic bombs at Dimona, a secret nuclear complex in the Negev Desert. The French-supplied reactor there has produced plutonium free from international controls since 1963. The quality of the plutonium created by the Dimona reactor is ideal for making atomic bombs.

The size of the reactor at Dimona is listed by the International Atomic Energy Agency [IAEA] as 26 megawatts (thermal). However, experts believe it is much more powerful than that. Mordechai Vanunu, an Israeli technician who worked at Dimona for eight years, reported that the reactor had been scaled up twice before he arrived at the site in 1977. The first scale-up was from 26MWt to 70MWt; the second was to some higher level.

The first scale-up was planned when Dimona was built. Israel convinced France to make the reactor's critical components--including its cooling circuit--three times larger than needed for a facility of its nominal size, and three times larger than originally agreed upon. This modification permitted a scale-up to 70MWt without the addition of extra cooling circuits, which would have attracted outside attention. Further evidence of a scale-up came in late 1968, when Israel diverted 200 metric tons of Belgian uranium on the high seas--a quantity considerably greater than a 26-megawatt reactor would have required. Israel probably needed the additional uranium for the first scale-up, which appears to have occurred in 1970.

Vanunu also said that Dimona had been producing 40 kilograms of plutonium per year for some time before he arrived in 1977. If the reactor at Dimona was unusually efficient (i.e., producing more than 1 gram of plutonium per megawatt day) and ran for as many as 300 days per year, the 40 kilograms could have been produced with a peak power of sightly more than 100MWt. If the reactor were less efficient, and operated for fewer days per year, the peak power would have to approach 150MWt.

Plutonium extraction

To be used in weapons, plutonium must be extracted chemically from irradiated nuclear reactor fuel. A French firm, St. Gobain Techniques, supplied Israel with a chemical extraction plant at Dimona. The plant's first trial runs were in late 1965. By 1968, Israel had extracted enough plutonium for an atomic bomb.

The Dimona reactor, if operated continuously, could have created as much as 870 kilograms of plutonium through 1994. This figure assumes that the reactor started operating at 26MWt in 1963, was scaled up to 70MWt in 1970, and was scaled up again in 1977 to a level at which it could produce about 40kg of plutonium per year. Vanunu reported that the extraction plant where he worked produced 1.17 kilograms of plutonium per week for 34 weeks per year, a total of 40 kilograms annually. At this rate, 320 kilograms of plutonium would have been produced during the eight years Vanunu worked at Dimona. If the reactor experienced shutdowns, or was operated at a lower power, this figure could be significantly smaller.

Future plutonium production at Dimona is uncertain, primarily because of the reactor's age. The United States has urged Israel to cap its nuclear program and cease plutonium production at Dimona, but Israel has not agreed to do so.

Size of Israel's arsenal

The above figures for plutonium production indicate that Israel could have up to 175 bombs' worth of plutonium in its nuclear arsenal today. This figure assumes roughly 5 kilograms of plutonium are needed per bomb, including processing losses. (Vanunu reported in 1986 that Israel was using about 4.4kg of plutonium per bomb, an amount slightly greater than the reflected fast critical mass of plutonium-239.)

It is impossible to estimate the exact size of Israel's arsenal without knowing Dimona's true operating history and the characteristics of Israeli nuclear weapon designs. For example, Israel has produced enriched uranium, which could be used to make additional weapons. Israel has also made a number of "boosted" weapons using tritium, also produced at Dimona. Tritium can be produced by irradiating lithium-6 targets in the Dimona reactor.
There ...that should put the Leftist, blatantly anti-Israeli (and therefore PROBABLY ...er....Nazi ) schmucks back in their tiny-minded boxes......er.....wait.......


Q. Which country on the planet is currently perceived by a majority of cat owners to be the greatest threat to " world peace " ?

Answers on a postcard......

HINT: it isn't North Korea, Iran or China.......
 
#11
Help me argue with Lefties who see no threat in an Iranian bomb
Why? Are they in a position of power and able to act on the issue?

Or do you just have nothing better to do than argue with people who clearly are never going to change their minds?
 
#12
I'd support the lefties on this one (being a leftie myself).

Look at it from Iran's perspective: to the NE they have American Troops, whose Governmental aim is to brand them as an axis of evil and destroy them; to the E they have a country who is nuclear armed, not particularly stable, and you have a suspicion that they'll use the eastern half of you country as somewhere to retreat into as they fight (and loose) the next war with their (nuclear armed) neighbours; to the NW you have yet more American Troops; to the W you have a series of countries whose brand of Islam is inimical to your own, and who host American Troops and have called for your country to be destroyed. Within ICBM range you have a nuclear armed state whose more rabid right wing is calling for your destruction 'just in case'.

Compare and contrast with a country like N Korea, who is treated with respect, despite behaving much more badly than you. Toss in the pride of a country that used to rule a large part of the Middle East and Central Asia, and you have a leadership that wants to be respected, and have some measure of regional power.

Whilst it might sound cool to invade/destroy/attack Iran, frankly they're acting rationally, and in this case jaw-jaw is better than war-war.

Just in case someone is willfully dull, Israel has a right to exist, probably within the 1960 borders, and they do have valid security concerns.
 
#13
The rules of MAD will ensure Israels survival its one thing to persuade some fuckwit just out of nappies that martyrdom is the fast track to Allahs right hand but its another matter knowing your 20 minutes away from being turned into air pollution if you press the big red button.
 

TheIronDuke

ADC
Book Reviewer
#15
Look at it from Iran's perspective:
Well well. A rational view from the ARRSE. Just when you think you have seen it all.

Ah, my dinner jacket is the gob-off front of Iran. A bit like Khrushchev in the old USSR (but he has yet to take his shoe off and bang it on the table). The Revolutionary Guards, one hopes, are the SA. The latest Khomeini is really only interested in doing the Godless Sunni up the back passage which leaves the question... Given that Iraq has historically been more West friendly than some of its neighbors, who are our chums in the regime?

Sorry to drift off-thread there. In answer to the original posters question... when debating with Hippies, dont bother. Tell them you have a secret recipe for Mu Tea, smuggled out of China by Shaolin Monks but it has been smuggled out on micro-fiche. So they will need to lean in close to see it. Unhook the crowbar from where it has been hanging off of the inside left sleeve of your jacket and twat the ****. Their children will thank you.
 
#16
We have done nothing but **** Iran over for decades and we are now reaping the consequences.

1953: Britain and the USA, worried by the democratically elected Iranian governments plans to nationalise the oil industry, back a coup replacing the democratically elected government with that of a brual dictator

1979: Iranians pushed over the edge by decades of state brutality by this Western-backed Shah and overthrow him. USA imposes economic sanctions in response to US diplomats being held hostage

1980-1988: The West backs Saddam Hussein's unprovoked war of aggression against Iran which ultimately kills around 1 million Iranians and involved the use of chemical weaponry by Iraqi forces.

1988: The USA launches a direct attack on Iran. Later on that year it then shoots down an Iranian passenger plane killing 290 civilians

2001: The United States and its allies invade and occupy Iran's neighbour Afghanistan

2002: US President George Bush lumps Iran in with the 'Axis of Evil'

2003: The United States and Britain invade and occupy Iran's other neighbour Iraq, leaving Iran surrounded and isolated by a power who has done nothing but **** them over for half a century. Iran steps up its pursuit of nuclear weapons



No where along that timeline has Iran invaded or attacked another country. It has helped sponsor anti-Israeli groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, but then, like the USA, Israel has given them nothing but shit for decades. Iran isn't suicidal. It knows full well that Israel and the USA have nuclear weapons and that Iran will be wiped off the map if they attack anyone with them. It wants these nukes as insurance they won't be invaded or attacked like their two neighbours- and who can blame them? Iran is very much a monster of our own creation

Not to say I support their nuclear ambitions, mainly because I fear it will start a middle eastern nuclear arms race. No way a country like Saudi Arabia will sit back while Iran has nukes. But if I was Iran I would bloody well want nuclear weapons as well.
 
#17
The Left will always act as apologists for the actual or potential enemies of the West.

CND and allied groups have a lot of previous in this area during the Cold War.It could be argued the CND was part of the GRU order of battle in the event of actual war breaking out before the Berlin wall collapsed.

And it has to be remembered,the former Soviet Union acquired nuclear weapons as a result of Left Wing sympathisers supplying them with stolen secrets.

The Left is in lock-step with Iran now,look how many anti-Iran demostrations there are in Britain and other Western countries,very few despite the present Iranian government being in power as a result of a rigged election and blatant abuses of human rights by the same government and it's vile secret police.
 
#18
The Left is in lock-step with Iran now,look how many anti-Iran demostrations there are in Britain and other Western countries,very few despite the present Iranian government being in power as a result of a rigged election and blatant abuses of human rights by the same government and it's vile secret police.
I can recall there being a lot of outcry during the post-election crackdowns. You are right though, the Iranian regime is vile, but since when was that reason to start declaring countries enemies? Saudi Arabia has an even more vile regime then Iran, but where is the outcry and sanctions there? We are too busy selling them weapons (Weapons which they used to help crack down on anti-government demonstrations in Bahrain- another vile regime we are happy to support as long as they are hosting US Naval bases)
 
#19
I can recall there being a lot of outcry during the post-election crackdowns. You are right though, the Iranian regime is vile, but since when was that reason to start declaring countries enemies? Saudi Arabia has an even more vile regime then Iran, but where is the outcry and sanctions there? We are too busy selling them weapons (Weapons which they used to help crack down on anti-government demonstrations in Bahrain- another vile regime we are happy to support as long as they are hosting US Naval bases)
The Iranian government-but not the people of Iran-are defiantly potential enemies of the West and should be treated as such.

You are right about Saudi,Bahrain and if push came to shove several other Arab regimes supported by the West,not to mention other repressive Western-backed countries.

However Syria is another darling of the Left,with a very muted response to outright repression against it's own people by the vile Assad regime.

Imagine the protests(and rightly so) in the West if Israel was treating her Arab population in anything like the same way.
 
#20
alfred_the_great said:
Whilst it might sound cool to invade/destroy/attack Iran, frankly they're acting rationally, and in this case jaw-jaw is better than war-war..
I agree. Despite that clown I'madinnerjacket's posturing, there is no logic to Iran attacking its neighbours. As a nation state it wants its own security and political kudos. Iran is also less of a police state than many of its neighbours. Fcuking great food as well!
 
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