Help identifying a Clansman antenna please

#1
chaps,

this is probably a bit of an odd request, but im hoping someone can verify a piece of clansman kit for me?

I have a 5.4m mast that i use for my own nerdy ham radio stuff, and have been wanting to extend the vertical antenna on it using a whip on top. According to the manuals for the PRC-320 this was a 2.4m whip.

Now, this chap on ebay is selling what he calls 'topping off' kits for this mast, which are 4m long -

ta_shunca_uitco also known as Sema4radios.

I think these might actually be vehicle antennas and have asked him to clarify by giving me the stock/part numbers, but hes suddely got very evasive! its as if he knows that hes trying to sell something thats not what he says it is! He even admits that i wont find these in the manual!!!

would someone familiar with clansman and particularly the HF stuff mid taking a quick peeky at his listings and telling me whether this kit really is what it says?

couple of listing numbers -
150461232723 mast kit
350093159115 topping off kit?

cheers for any help fellas
 
#3
The lower 2 pieces are VHF vehicle whip antenna elements, the 2 pieces above look like parts of the 3 or 4 metre HF vehicle whip antenna elements. They are also in crap order, rust/tarnish corrosion. As they are plated if you wire brush the corrosion you will end up with the base metal showing through, then the ae elements will corrode quicker and fuse together.

Topping off kit? HE'S MADE IT UP.

We just used to stick the 320 whip in the top, use the vertical/sloping wire OR the various manpack di-pole bits and pieces. Also improvised antennas using calculations and any old bits of D10, dems cable, wire fence, crash-barrier etc etc.
Also used the 5.4 to elevate an improvised vertical di-pole plugged into a PRC 349.

Clansman HF comms and antenna theory, love it to bits. (Which pin on the powered audio socket of the 320 lets you transmit CW by shorting it to the body?) The CRSLR was also a dogs Bs bit of kit, but that's another lesson.
 
#4
cheers for the replies chaps


Looks like a vhf vehicle antenna (PV1316), but the seller doesn't say that it isn't! It'll still work.

As for not finding it in the manual, have you looked at http://www.radioamateur.eu/schemi/surplus_nato/PRC-320_user.pdf page 12?
yes, thats what im supsecting. He doesnt say that its not a vehicle antenna, but likewise he does say specifically that its for on top of the 5.4m mast, which it quite clearly wasnt.

p. 12 in the manual was what i was using as a guide for trying to work this out. I had asked him to conirm the part numbers but he so far has declined to do so, and in fact now seems reluctant to answer any emails about this, after i asked if he could send a photo showing the 'kit' in use on a 5.4m mast, and a close up of the adaptor fitting


blunstlane,

is there a copy of the clansman antenna theory course/documents on the 'net anywhere? id be interested to read that. It wasnt something i did in my time.

Would the vehicle HF 4m whip fit the adaptor on the 5.4m mast then? Ive been looking at the adaptor and all i see is a hole about 1/2inch dia with a metal pin in the bottom, presumably to stop the rod slipping through? is there something else needed with this? I ask because i know another seller who has them, actually for sale as vehicle antennas, and still wrapped, and for only 2/3 of what this dude wants for his 'topping off' kit!

This clansman stuff is great for ham radio portable use, since it was designed for field work anyway, the only problem is the sellers want silly money for it! I'd like to build up the full dipole set - 2x wires, center piece, and a counterpoise, but i cant afford it!
 
#5
Can I ask the learned amongst you, (imagine an inverted V dipole) using the dipole centre junction, and the two wire antenna winders, wire on one side chord on the other. What internal shenanigans was going on with the wire that it to all intents and purposes became shorter when tied off. Is that clear?

Imagine making a dipole with 2m legs. Versus a dipole with 10m legs, there is still the same length of wire on the winder.

Cheers and sorry for hijacking.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#6
Can I ask the learned amongst you, (imagine an inverted V dipole) using the dipole centre junction, and the two wire antenna winders, wire on one side chord on the other. What internal shenanigans was going on with the wire that it to all intents and purposes became shorter when tied off. Is that clear?

Imagine making a dipole with 2m legs. Versus a dipole with 10m legs, there is still the same length of wire on the winder.

Cheers and sorry for hijacking.
When using a CJD the wire on the winder has virtually no effect - of course if you want to be precise you used copper wire to length, or lengths separately by plastic insulators if making a MFD.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#7
The first kit is a man portable 5.4 mast complete with guys and counterpoise.
The second is just as the other poster said - well worn vehicle whips.

You can get this stuff for half that price, I helped someone out looking for stuff a while back and found this place:
Army Radio Sales Co. - Home
 
#8
Alsacien, I understand what you are saying, but the wire component of the dipole is still physically connected to the wire on the winder, I can't get my head round how the the set can tune efficiently, SWR etc.

Im sure I asked this in training and got the

GOOD QUESTION, I WILL FIND OUT FOR YOU meaning awkward little shit, how TF should I know.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#9
Alsacien, I understand what you are saying, but the wire component of the dipole is still physically connected to the wire on the winder, I can't get my head round how the the set can tune efficiently, SWR etc.

Im sure I asked this in training and got the

GOOD QUESTION, I WILL FIND OUT FOR YOU meaning awkward little shit, how TF should I know.
Why would you need to tune the set? You just tell it the freq you want, then depending how much wire you have do 468/freq = total length and decide whether you will make a whole/half/quarter wavelength.
Same deal works with a TUAAM and a whip so is hardly depending on a precision length to function.

You have me getting all nostalgic about chirp sounding, adjusting MFD's to optimal freqs and planning scheds now.....
 
#10
Wireless Barf

Remember it well - was given the highly important role of crew bitch on a HF Detachment back in 1996 and worked on several more from then until Bowman was introduced I have looked at the Manpack mast topping off kit as he calls it and I can positively say that he is indeed selling a manpack 5.4M antenna that does exist. However the 4M vehicle mounted whips we used to use are not part of any topping off kit I have ever come across - he is merely ramming 4x1M whip sections into the top of the 5.4M manpack kit and selling it off as an extention for lots more cash - look around the net you can buy worn whips at a fraction of the cost he is selling his for- come to think of it if ppl like you are buying old whips with a new name (manpack mast extention kit) im buying me a bucket load and getting on ebay.

Sarcasm I know and I have also highlighted the point others have clarified but I do miss those clansman days
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#11
How would one tune a Clansman set? Both the 320 and 321 were self-tuning. When you QSY on the 321, you hear the "click-whirr" mechanical noise, and the unready tone in the ancils. The click-whirr is the set driving cores in and out of coils to tune itself. If it fails to do so (normally because it's shagged in certain bands), it will stop making mechanical noise, but continue with the infernal unready tone in the ancils.

Once that's done, you match the antenna impedance to the set's output impedance with the TURF. It has a SELECT switch, which switches a capacitor of varying value into circuit, a MATCH knob that varies a capacitance, and then a TUNE knob that varies a GBFO inductor. All of the above then match the impedance of the antenna to the set. Coil of wire on the end of a braid (which has little effect), or not.

Or have I just been WAH'd?
It says why not how, but my post was just not very clear, I should have added "to the antenna". And you are right TURF and SURF not TUAAM - been a while.......
But you seem right up to speed - do you have shed by any chance......?
 
#12
Alsacien, I understand what you are saying, but the wire component of the dipole is still physically connected to the wire on the winder, I can't get my head round how the the set can tune efficiently, SWR etc.

Im sure I asked this in training and got the

GOOD QUESTION, I WILL FIND OUT FOR YOU meaning awkward little shit, how TF should I know.
BC, I'm starting to scratch the limits of my ae theory. It's my belief that the wound-up part of the dipole leg cancels out the wavelengths travelling along the wire in the coil. This is also why the co-ax feed into the cjd has to be perpendicular to the dipole. If the co-ax lay along side a dipole leg then it would cause a null effect on the generated field where they were adjacent.

Edit to add: A pucka 5.4m mast kit should have a counterpoise included in it, normally 4? multiple bright green strands of wire, wound on a spider, each wire leg having a plastic washer on the end for pegging the legs taught. I think it had short connecting lead to connect it to the 320 earth terminal but I may be getting confused.

I don't know if the Sapper ME C3S course notes are on line, I would think not, but if you contact the Comms Trg Wing, Gibraltar Bks, Minley, GU17 9LP I'm sure they would help you out on the non-classified stuff. The Sappers also had a ham radio club that may be contactable through the same place. As your avatar has a RS backing I am beginning to suspect I have been the victim of an elaborate hoax.

Hope this helps, also hope it's accurate.

Proud to have been Military Engineer C3S
 
#13
How would one tune a Clansman set? Both the 320 and 321 were self-tuning. When you QSY on the 321, you hear the "click-whirr" mechanical noise, and the unready tone in the ancils. The click-whirr is the set driving cores in and out of coils to tune itself. If it fails to do so (normally because it's shagged in certain bands), it will stop making mechanical noise, but continue with the infernal unready tone in the ancils.

Once that's done, you match the antenna impedance to the set's output impedance with the TURF. It has a SELECT switch, which switches a capacitor of varying value into circuit, a MATCH knob that varies a capacitance, and then a TUNE knob that varies a GBFO inductor. All of the above then match the impedance of the antenna to the set. Coil of wire on the end of a braid (which has little effect), or not.

Or have I just been WAH'd?
I am prepared to bow to superior knowledge but I believe the act of adjusting the TUNE knob is the act of fine-TUNING the radio/TURF (Tuning Unit Radio Frequency). This act by the operator would be "tuning" and therefore the radio is not actually self tuning but is being tuned by an operator. That even comes across to me as pedantry but seeing as it was my job for 22 years I'm probably being a little over protective.
 
#14
It says why not how, but my post was just not very clear, I should have added "to the antenna". And you are right TURF and SURF not TUAAM - been a while.......
But you seem right up to speed - do you have shed by any chance......?
Alsacien, I dream of having a shed, however when I am finally lucky enough to own my own man-palace there will be no ham comms kit in it.
 
#15
How would one tune a Clansman set? Both the 320 and 321 were self-tuning. When you QSY on the 321, you hear the "click-whirr" mechanical noise, and the unready tone in the ancils. The click-whirr is the set driving cores in and out of coils to tune itself. If it fails to do so (normally because it's shagged in certain bands), it will stop making mechanical noise, but continue with the infernal unready tone in the ancils.

Once that's done, you match the antenna impedance to the set's output impedance with the TURF. It has a SELECT switch, which switches a capacitor of varying value into circuit, a MATCH knob that varies a capacitance, and then a TUNE knob that varies a GBFO inductor. All of the above then match the impedance of the antenna to the set. Coil of wire on the end of a braid (which has little effect), or not.

Or have I just been WAH'd?
If that last bit were strictly true then why have different antenna lengths for different frequencies? "Just let the TURF do it- Tune Match and Select sort out that length malarkey".:confused: Of course with the dipole in use the TURF is not needed because the legs of the dipole are cut to length so the "bridge" is disconnected. On the Clansman braid the coiled up bit I believe nulls itself electromagnetically.
 
#16
I do understand why the antenna length has to be correct. V= F * Lambda etc. What my original question was asking was how is the wound up component of wire not included in the antenna length, we were encourage to give a few wraps on the winder to ensure its tied off etc, but to my mind this is like tying a knot in an electrical cord, its still connected.
 
#17
I do understand why the antenna length has to be correct. V= F * Lambda etc. What my original question was asking was how is the wound up component of wire not included in the antenna length, we were encourage to give a few wraps on the winder to ensure its tied off etc, but to my mind this is like tying a knot in an electrical cord, its still connected.
Yes sorry I started rambling. I believe the wavelengths along the coiled up bit cancel themselves out, so are NOT part of the ae length. This is also exactly why the coax feed into the CJD must be perpendicular.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#18
Alsacien, I dream of having a shed, however when I am finally lucky enough to own my own man-palace there will be no ham comms kit in it.
My thoughts exactly, and I have a 30m2 man zone - I never wanted to see another comms device other than a mobile phone for the rest of my life.
But I got nostalgic today looking at a 322 and had a mental image of the mrs in the supermarket with a 319 on her back with an OTP for the shopping list.....sad...
 
#20
thanks for all the replies chaps,

Im pretty convinced now that this fella is talking out his 'hole, so although i might get one of the 4m vehicle antennas from another seller, i certainly wont be entertaining his cobbled together 'topping off kit'

Interesting that its been said the counterpoise should be part of the kit. Not sure, but since the vertical wire comes with it i suppose it makes sense. Wasnt one with mine, and not seen any of the sellers offering it included, since they can sell it seperately and charge an extra 20 notes. Since its only four bits of 9m long wire im buggered if im paying that when i can just chop some off a reel of conduit wire! I do like the proper antenna wires though, since the markings make adjusting the length a piece of p1ss

the 'argument' over the effect of the coiled wire on the end, well, i can answer that (ham radio nerdy moment coming), it has no detectable effect. As far as the radio signal is concerned, it sees the coild section as a very high impedence and ignors it. The length from the wound up bit to the center however needs to be 1/4w at the desired frequency for the antenna to be resonant. The inductance of the wound bit may affect the resonant point a little, but simply making the antenna a leeetle bit short will add enough capacitance to cancel that out. The SURF/TURF unit, which is an ATU (antenna tuning unit, properly called a matching unit, cos it 'tunes' fek all) has a limited range of impedences it can match, which allows the antenna to be matched even when measured a bit inaccurately by some cack handed squaddie.

hope that helps (if you have been affected by any issues raised in this discussion please send all your spare clansman kit to me)
 

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