Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Heavy fighting erupts over separatist Nagorno-Karabakh (Armenia Vs Azerbaijan)

For a nation of brilliant and successful people one really wonders who they got to do their propaganda for them


Both sides have been at that. The Azeris are claiming to have destroyed more AFVs than are actually inside NK.

What is a lot worse is the big push both sides have been on for the last week to show videos of enemy dead on social media.

The lengths they are going to in order to 'win' the social media battle seems to be another huge difference in this war.
 
Both sides have been at that. The Azeris are claiming to have destroyed more AFVs than are actually inside NK.

What is a lot worse is the big push both sides have been on for the last week to show videos of enemy dead on social media.

The lengths they are going to in order to 'win' the social media battle seems to be another huge difference in this war.

The difference between them being the Azeris show visual evidence of widespread destruction whereas the Armenians quote patently absurd numbers and show scant visual evidence. ORYX blog mentions that the visual "evidence" the Armenians produce is frequently of such poor quality it cannot be relied on.

Graphic videos of enemy dead has been a feature on social media at least since the Syrian war. There is always the question of who is actually posting it since in theory anyone can - I often wondered how fighters at the front far from civilization are able to upload their movies so quickly.
 
Bombardier Recreational Products (BRP) have apparently stopped delivering aircraft engines to Turkey due to their use in drones.
Bombardier suspends delivery of aircraft engines used on military drones

BRP are separate from Bombardier aerospace (the family who founded Bombardier split the two into separate companies a few years ago). They are best known for snowmobiles and other such products

They own Rotax, who make aircraft engines in Austria. Due to Armenian reports they became aware that Turkey was using their engines in their Bayraktar TB2 drones.
"We have recently been made aware that some Rotax engines are currently used in military UAVs, and have started a thorough investigation immediately," Martin Langelier, BPR's senior vice president and the company's spokesperson, told Radio Canada International in an email statement.

"In the meantime, we are suspending delivery of aircraft engines in countries with unclear usage."

Rotax engines made in Austria are intended and certified for civilian use only. Bombardier does not need Canadian permits to export engines from Austria. The applicable regulations there are Austrian and European.

The Rotax engines are not on the EU controlled export list and don't count as a dual use item at this time, so no Austrian export permits are required either. However, it sounds as if Bombardier are nervous about being caught in the middle on this in case someone in Austria or the EU decide that the engines were exported as for civilian use and should not have been ending up in Turkish military products.
Michel Cimpaye, a spokesperson for Global Affairs Canada, said exports of items on the country's Export Control List require a permit only when exported from Canada.

Controlled goods and technology exported from another country, however, are subject to the export controls of that country, Cimpaye added.

Gabriele Juen, a spokesperson for the Austrian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said the Rotax engines are used in various motorsports and drones could be used "for a multitude of solely civilian purposes."

"The European Union Control List of Dual Use Items does not list the drone engine in question as a dual use good item," Juen said. "As a consequence, no approval permit is required under Austrian legislation that regulates the export of defence-related goods."

There doesn't seem to be any direct resolution of this at this time.
 
If I was an Armenian,
If I were an Armenian... I would flee to Russia, to Moscow where I would find opportunities for business or where I would find job and a lot of other Armenians. Btw, there are only about 120 thousands or so Armenians in NK. It is not so huge number to resettle them.
I’d want to make sure I was safely behind Armenia propers borders once the neighbours take back their land, they won’t love you none more....

Azerbaijan town of Agdam, had a population of 40,000, Azeri population driven out and the town systematically destroyed to stop their return, the entire occupied zone is the same, total systematic destruction

View attachment 514420

Agdam... The town was famous from Soviet times by its port wine (not so good as Portugese one but lovely).

1603571842598.png

My late Mother-in-Law was fond of another sweet Azeri wine - Shemakha

1603571981089.png
 
The difference between them being the Azeris show visual evidence of widespread destruction whereas the Armenians quote patently absurd numbers and show scant visual evidence. ORYX blog mentions that the visual "evidence" the Armenians produce is frequently of such poor quality it cannot be relied on.

Graphic videos of enemy dead has been a feature on social media at least since the Syrian war. There is always the question of who is actually posting it since in theory anyone can - I often wondered how fighters at the front far from civilization are able to upload their movies so quickly.
I think the major difference there is that the Azeris have a great deal of drone footage where the Armenians are primarily causing casualties through artillery, mortars and small arms fire, which is a lot harder to get video footage of.

The Azeris also seem to be doing a much better job of getting the video footage out tagged for speakers of foreign languages. The Armenian stuff seems to be primarily for people that speak Armenian. In the last couple of days I have seen multiple videos of what the Armenians have achieved on Armenian and Russian sources that I haven't seen mentioned on any English language sources such as positions they have re-taken, a whole convoy of BTRs captured intact etc.
 
I think the major difference there is that the Azeris have a great deal of drone footage where the Armenians are primarily causing casualties through artillery, mortars and small arms fire, which is a lot harder to get video footage of.

The Azeris also seem to be doing a much better job of getting the video footage out tagged for speakers of foreign languages. The Armenian stuff seems to be primarily for people that speak Armenian. In the last couple of days I have seen multiple videos of what the Armenians have achieved on Armenian and Russian sources that I haven't seen mentioned on any English language sources such as positions they have re-taken, a whole convoy of BTRs captured intact etc.
A vid of an entire BTR convoy captured intact would surely be of interest to people following this thread, particularly if, as you say, it is not available in the mainstream. Can you share those sort of things with us please.
 
A vid of an entire BTR convoy captured intact would surely be of interest to people following this thread, particularly if, as you say, it is not available in the mainstream. Can you share those sort of things with us please.

I don't mean I have a super secret source. This stuff is on YouTube. They just don't seem to be 'marketing' it for a foreign audience as well as the Azeris.

 
I don't mean I have a super secret source. This stuff is on YouTube. They just don't seem to be 'marketing' it for a foreign audience as well as the Azeris.


yes, it’s been doing the rounds on the blogs with a large dose of cynicism at this ‘capture’.
no location, no signs of an ‘ambush’, no bodies, just 7 BTRs parked along a road with plenty of space to do a 180 and and drive back out an ‘ambush’, with the cameraman totally cool about walking casually up a ‘contested‘ road on a brilliant sunny day when the Azeris have total air dominance.
 
And Azeri military now confirm they’re @ Lachin
Both sides have been at that. The Azeris are claiming to have destroyed more AFVs than are actually inside NK.

What is a lot worse is the big push both sides have been on for the last week to show videos of enemy dead on social media.

The lengths they are going to in order to 'win' the social media battle seems to be another huge difference in this war.


hate to break this to you, but even Harutyunyan accepts he’s losing, openly admits the Lacin corridor is about to be cut, and is calling on Pashinyan to give up on his greater Armenia fantasy and talk peace.
 
The two sides have agreed to another cease fire at a meeting of the Minsk Group in Washington on Sunday. The cease fire is to take effect at 8:00am local time on Monday.
Armenia, Azerbaijan agree to new Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire

The Minsk Group are to meet again in Geneva on the 29th of October.

The Minsk Group are the US, Russia, France, Belarus, Germany, Italy, Portugal, the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, and Turkey, as well as Armenia and Azerbaijan. It operates under the OSCE and was set up in 1992 to resolve the Armenia - Azerbaijan matter.

In this case it appears from the story that just the co-chairs of the group, the US, Russia, and France attended the meeting with Armenia and Azerbaijan.
The United States on Sunday said a new humanitarian ceasefire will take effect on Monday in the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia over the enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, even as fresh fighting erupted between the two sides who blame each other for the failure of previous truces.

The ceasefire is due to take effect at 8 a.m. local time on Monday, the U.S. State Department and the governments of Azerbaijan and Armenia said in a joint statement.

The announcement comes after U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with foreign ministers from Armenia and Azerbaijan in Washington on Friday.

Those meetings were joined by the co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group, formed to mediate the conflict and led by France, Russia and the United States, which described them as "intensive discussions" on the ceasefire and the beginning of talks about core elements of a comprehensive solution.

The Minsk Group said its co-chairs and the foreign ministers agreed to meet again in Geneva on Oct. 29.
 
@KGB_resident - time for your boys to up their game...
It's very interesting as some of us have in the past accepted accounts of Russian equipment being good, and have even excused poor performance on the grounds of, for example, the equipment being an export version; inadequate operator training, etc, with the implication that the version used by Russia itself would be better.
That approach is increasingly hard to defend.
I don't know that Western equipment would do better in the context of fighting in NK, but Russian ground-based air defence is looking obsolete -when faced with UAV.
Edit - I am not suggesting that all Russian equipment is poor. I am more reflecting on past willingness to make excuses for Russian kit when it hasn't performed.
 
Last edited:
If I were an Armenian... I would flee to Russia, to Moscow where I would find opportunities for business or where I would find job and a lot of other Armenians. Btw, there are only about 120 thousands or so Armenians in NK. It is not so huge number to resettle them.


Agdam... The town was famous from Soviet times by its port wine (not so good as Portugese one but lovely).


My late Mother-in-Law was fond of another sweet Azeri wine - Shemakha


Interestingly, watching Russian TV news the other night, reporters interviewing Armenians in NK and Armenia proper.
definate war weariness, especially in NK. 30 years of ‘independence’ has seen zero improvement in living standards and the not really autonomous region turned into an armed camp in a permanent state of siege. No wonder migration from NK is so high - “We have created a desert and called it peace” indeed.

further...

Azerbaijan has announced all civilians are free to leave to a 3rd country in safety, and all Armenia troops who surrender will be well treated and be under the oversight of a 3rd party

Azerbaijan has stated it’s willing to allow NK the highest level of autonomy.

Armenia reports it’s had 90,000 refugees from NK

Russia has set up an Army observer post on the Armenian side of the Lachin Corridor watching the road.

end game?

Russia supervises migration from NK and provides per permanent observers for the disarmed autonomous region when it’s back in Bakus control.

NK stays technically separate, Azerbaijan gets all its territory back, Pashinyan gets his reputation trashed; Win-Win-Win for Russia.
 
It's very interesting as a lot of us have in the past accepted accounts of Russian equipment being good, and have even excused poor performance on the grounds of, for example, the equipment being an export version; inadequate operator training, etc, with the implication that the version used by Russia itself would be better.
That approach is increasingly hard to defend.
I don't know that Western equipment would do better in the context of fighting in NK, but Russian ground-based air defence is looking obsolete -when faced with UAV.
Edit - I am not suggesting that all Russian equipment is poor. I am more reflecting on the past willingness of some to make excuses for Russian kit when it hasn't performed.

The tales of Russian equipment remind me of the image Rommel had - some of it was justified and some wasn't.
Ground based air defense depends a lot upon the operator. In the 1980's a young low-ranking member of an IDF Hawk missile unit who had a technical high school backround suggested a tweek to the aging Hawk system that led to one of their Hawks downing a Syrian Mig 25.

The impression from the many Azerbaijani drone videos we have seen appears to show these UAVs operating with impunity, taking out the very equipment that is there to defend against them. I really wonder where the problem is. There is such a thing as unfit for purpose - like when they tried to use Patriot AA missiles against Iraqi Scuds......

I hope for every squaddie anywhere that his command has taken care of providing defence against these drones. Otherwise you're like a fish in a barrel.


 
Last edited:
It's very interesting as some of us have in the past accepted accounts of Russian equipment being good, and have even excused poor performance on the grounds of, for example, the equipment being an export version; inadequate operator training, etc, with the implication that the version used by Russia itself would be better.
That approach is increasingly hard to defend.
I don't know that Western equipment would do better in the context of fighting in NK, but Russian ground-based air defence is looking obsolete -when faced with UAV.
Edit - I am not suggesting that all Russian equipment is poor. I am more reflecting on past willingness to make excuses for Russian kit when it hasn't performed.

Harop, Son of Harpy, is a very deadly bit of kit, properly cutting edge.
when a Isreal tried to sell upgraded Harpy’s to China, it caused a very serious spat with Tel Aviv when the USN pointed out to the .Gov the latest version of Hary was quite capable of taking out an Arleigh Burkes radars.
The Russian kits good, but Israel has the best SEAD kit on the planet.

and what we are seeing over Syria, Libya and now Azerbaijan over the last years has been the fast paced development of all out wars pushing drones from interesting ideas, to mainstream war winning weaponry.

The Turkish deployment of its new Kargu mini hunter killer AI/facial recognition swarming quadcopter drone is very significant - that’s the one in the footage that spots a guy stand up, and chases and kills him - we are now entering Slaughterbot territory.

and yes, one of the design objectives of these new generation Turkish AI drones is to hunt down known PKK leaders.

 
The tales of Russian equipment remind me of the image Rommel had - some of it was justified and some wasn't.
Ground based air defense depends a lot upon the operator. In the 1980's a young low-ranking member of an IDF Hawk missile unit who had a technical high school backround suggested a tweek to the aging Hawk system that led to one of their Hawks downing a Syrian Mig 25.

The impression from the many Azerbaijani drone videos we have seen appears to show these UAVs operating with impunity, taking out the very equipment that is there to defend against them. I really wonder where the problem is. There is such a thing as unfit for purpose - like when they tried to use Patriot AA missiles against Iraqi Scuds......

I hope for every squaddie anywhere that his command has taken care of providing defenxe against these drones. Otherwise you're like a fish in a barrel.



The tales of Russian equipment remind me of the image Rommel had - some of it was justified and some wasn't.
Ground based air defense depends a lot upon the operator. In the 1980's a young low-ranking member of an IDF Hawk missile unit who had a technical high school backround suggested a tweek to the aging Hawk system that led to one of their Hawks downing a Syrian Mig 25.

The impression from the many Azerbaijani drone videos we have seen appears to show these UAVs operating with impunity, taking out the very equipment that is there to defend against them. I really wonder where the problem is. There is such a thing as unfit for purpose - like when they tried to use Patriot AA missiles against Iraqi Scuds......

I hope for every squaddie anywhere that his command has taken care of providing defenxe against these drones. Otherwise you're like a fish in a barrel.


Good points.
Some of the Armenian ground-based air defence systems like the Osa and Zsu 23-4 were designed before the modern version of UAV were in use. There is one report of an Armenian Pantsir being destroyed by a Azerbaijani UAV, and the Pantsir is marketed as being effective against UAV (although some sources have claimed the export version is less capable, and lacks the radar network needed to be effective).
It would be interesting to hear the views of any Arrsers re. why Armenia is finding it hard to counter the UAV.

Edit - interesting link btw.
 
Last edited:

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top