Has the Royal Navy damaged its brand?

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by armchair_jihad, Apr 8, 2007.

?
  1. Yes 400 years of tradition tarnished

    50.3%
  2. It will make good again the next big sea battle...errr.

    4.7%
  3. No it saved the world from America attacking Iran

    9.4%
  4. No just cull the Senior Ranks and sack some juniors

    7.4%
  5. Surrendering then Apologizing is still one better than the French

    9.4%
  6. No its launched the Media careers of the hostages.

    2.0%
  7. No the Navy is now a Political entity which truthfully represents the UK

    7.4%
  8. Yes and why fund a failing brand for new Carriers

    3.4%
  9. Royal what?

    6.0%

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. OK lets be clear I am one of the people who regards the past two weeks as deeply shameful and damaging to this Country's interests. The aftermath with TV and book deals, spreads in Hello magazine etc. are going to be much, much worse, in an attempt to regain the media initiative on a subject that has united all newspapers from the Daily Mail to the Guardian, the Navy has agreed to launch the hostages as media celebrities.

    This is insane, anybody even as remotely involved with this decision as making the tea should be sacked today.

    It will not drive recruitment. It will not paint the Navy in a positive light. It will not lead to more domestic political support. It will and has already alienated ALL Newspaper Editors. This is not damage control it is damage amplification.

    There is evidently a complete vacuum at the top of the Navy and the associated bits of the MoD.
     
  2. Bliar has destroyed everything that once was great and good in our country, except the Armed Forces and the Sovereign.

    Now it is possible that, as he (Bliar) is on his way out (thanks be to God), he has started the process of dismantling the Armed Forces.

    Great Britain will regret Bliar and his cohorts of worthless ninnies for a generation or more and history will condemn him personally to a position of regret and opprobrium.
     
  3. On the other hand you could view this as being a pragmatic response to today's media climate. Whilst British service personnel being taken hostage is hardly unique in recent years-

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/gorazde.shtml

    http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/africa/08/30/leone.hostages.02/index.html

    the resonance of the generally unpopular Iraq context and the fact that one of the hostages was female (although the Iranians and the media made far more of this than did most service personnel), mean that this story will run and run. Why not, with appropriate MOD oversight, let the individuals tell their story? I suspect that the Iranians won't come out of it well.

    Admittedly it's spin, but show me a goverment or organisation that says it doesn't indulge in the practice and I'll show you a liar.
     
  4. The Armed Forces now seem to fall into two categories - those who do the fighting and those who don't.

    With respect to 400 hundred years of tradition, it would seem that c.80% of the RN and RAF shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the front line without additional training.

    Frankly, the RN sailors looked amateurish.... and it poorly reflects upon the Navy as a whole.

    This said, a boatload of RM troops may have encountered exactly the same problems as their RN comrades

    Troop training/ personal qualities aside, I feel the 'blame' for any national dishonour aught to lie squarely at the feet of the UK Government.

    It seemed ill prepared for negotiation and incapable of managing its own national interests.

    The return of the 15 service personal is to be applauded but I personally feel any kudos for their delivery was lost in the diplomatic mayhem.

    To the world, we speak softly and we don’t carry a big stick
     
  5. Its not just Blair its what you get when labour is involved in all levels of government.
    They are still a party that is anti establishment have ideas by the bucket full but have no idea how to run anything.

    Labour will always fail as they are idealists and not realists it shows in everthing they are involved in.
     
  6. There were RM personnel in the boats. In fact the senior guy was an RM Captain, who presumably took the decision to surrender.

    Without wishing to repost the links above, Army personnel have also allowed themselves to become hostages in recent years when faced with seemingly overwhelming odds. The difference here is that, unlike the various Bosnian factions and the West Side Boys, the Iranians have a sophisticated understanding and capability when it comes to the modern mass media. I suspect that we would have been having this discussion over a decade ago (although possibly not here!) if they had.
     
  7. The senior guy was in fact the RN Lt. People seem to forget that the 15 looking down the barrel of crew served weapons with only SA80 and pistols to retaliate. I've been up in the NAG-I've seen first hand how the IRGCN go into Iraqi TTW in speedboats armed to the teeth and I know for a fact that they are as about mentally stable as Chubb/Pentwyn. It would've been fcuking suicidial for them to have fought back and would've served little purpose-in case people forget, we're not at war with Iran. HMS Cornwall's boarding team were carrying out its duty as laid out by the UN in its Security Council Resolution.

    Do you honestly think that if there was any chance of being able to mount a rescue operation, we would've gone down the route of the debacle that we witnessed? Don't forget the last rescue effort in Iran ended in a lot of deaths for the US...

    MTS has a valid point about the RN not being allowed anywhere near the front line without further training-in the same way, no Army bod would be allowed anywhere near MIOPS without the appropiate training also. We do what we do very very well, in the same way that you do also.

    MTS, unless I've interpreted your comments wrongly, you seem to imply that the people captured were RN only-don't forget the booties from FPGRM. I've got some very good mates in FPGRM and if they decided not to fight back, then I'm 100% sure that if any Army personnel were in the same situation, then they would've done exactly the same. The RN personnel are the search specialists-the RM's are the unopposed boarding specialists and FP team.

    Even if the Cornwall had been aware of the incoming IRGCN vessels from the off (and there's no suggestion to say that they were-radio silence does have its advantages remember-we do it all the time) , the geography of the area would've meant that there was very little they could have done in such a short time-scale.

    Why did the Lynx return to Mother? I don't know and haven't heard any rumours why but I'm sure it'll come out in due course. The Lynx a/c out there are routinely fitted with a .50 cal HMG though and have been for several years.

    Bosnia and the West Side Boys are not Iran. Iran are a potent force and one not to be disregarded quickly-they understand the concept of Info Ops and used it fully to their advantage to the embarassment of the UK. Our government have been caught on the backfoot and are now trying to regain the initiative. You can thank the 'Big Brother/Reality TV' culture for the offers made to the captured personnel-it doesn't mean all of them will accept it though.

    Mistakes have been made and lessons will have undoubtedly learnt but we got them all back alive.

    The UK cannot afford to go to war with Iran whilst in Iraq and Afghanistan.
     
  8. I concur,

    I think that with the recent announcement that the personnel involved are able to sell their stories will also cause a possible two-tier reaction/backlash.

    Undoubtedly the MOD will be wishing for the media to focus on the equal opportunities aspect with regards to career options for females with children.I fear the red-top media will make a meal out of that and focus to much on the "mother at war" aspect.

    Faye should beware of selling herself out and I hope Seb,H and the rest take note also.15 minutes of fame may feel good at the time but,this opens the doors for any messdeck grievance/dits gash or not to be sold to the media.

    It will not be long until certain stereotypes often associated with WRENs at sea are front page yet again.
     
  9. I am very much aware that the media has manipulated to our impression of the 15 service personal and accept that I no-longer serve in the Armed Forces.

    This said, my last Iraq tour made me increasingly uneasy about the state of rear echelon troops – and this event has prompted the very same thoughts

    I don’t want to hark back to a supposed ‘golden-age’ - but I left the Army feeling that the Combined Services no longer educated their personal to common military standards.

    I experienced both Army and Navy teams in Basra and the Shat Al Arab waterway.

    Their personal qualities would vary to such a degree that we would often choose to deploy undersized teams than commit ourselves to a poorly balanced skill-mix.

    I would hope that the RN search teams are appropriately schooled in CAC techniques - and understand the importance of maintaining a composed and mannered decorum.

    I hesitate to make this personal, but a number of the RN sailors looked physically and (emotionally) ill equipped to deal with their capture.

    The inevitable accusation will be “Well, have you ever bean captured?” – and the answer will be “NO”; but my soldiers were trained to be captured and were fit enough to endure the physical stresses of capture.

    We are putting the wrong troops into battle because we are not training them properly or funding their operations correctly




    *I too, echo the previous 'lessons learnt' comments and Supermatelots' '15-minutes of Fame' observation
     
  10. MTS,

    I do know of instances in the past where Boarding Party members haven't even being Boarding Party trained...

    CAC training? Dream on mate! But I think that may change though with time.

    Boarding parties are made up of varying trades. They're not all Infantry wannabes MTS. And all the training in the world is probably going to go out the window when you're blindfolded in a Tehran Jail with the sound of a weapon being made ready behind you.
     
  11. I thought when you joined the miltary that you were trained for these kind of experiences .
     
  12. And what made you think that? Watching GI Jane? Please informs us just what piece of information you have been exposed to that makes you believe that, it's a slow Sunday and I could do with a laff to help the easter eggs digest!
     
  13. I accept that 'all the training' could go out of the window when your in Tehran, but that is not my point.

    In my mind, RN Boarding Parties are prone to capture troops, they might need to fight (if only to extract themselves), and the current skill-mix on these boats currently leaves something to be desired.

    Yes - they did the right thing and surrendered, but (and its a personal one) they appeared ill-equipped and poorly trained to deal with the situation.

    The cringe-worthy television footage was enough to convince me that my personal observations remain true.

    We are putting the wrong troops into battle because we are not training them properly or funding their operations correctly
     
  14. Boarding parties comprise of a (almost random) selected team who have done a rapid-roping course/boarding ops training...97% of the time.They also can comprise of people who have been "stitched" to fill a seat (gapped billets and all that).They are not considered to be personnel who are prone to capture and thus are not deemed in need of CAC training.

    I have done boarding ops many a time in the past with many of the team being fresh out of the box and only there because their name was on that piece of the watch and station bill.

    The booties are trained in active combat - a killick spec and a few OMs are most certainly not.An APWT hardly counts as combat training!
     
  15. cheers....so if I'm correct, any-one has a chance of getting divvied for a Boarding Op yes?

    blimey