Has Israel lost direction completely?

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Bugsy, Jul 18, 2006.

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  1. Here's a very interesting article from a CIA Middle East analyst. I happen to agree with her.


    What I can't understand is what Israel hopes to gain from all this barbarism. It's been going on for nigh on 60 years now. I'd have thought that the Israelis would be interested in working towards a solution that would bring a lasting peace to the region and allow them to finally stand down from a continuous war-footing. But they seem to be doing the exact opposite. Maybe I'm too thick to be able to understand such short-sightedness.

  2. Without going into the politics and history of it all (covered in other threads and threads that are doubtless to come), regardless of the images and perceptions in the big wide world (courtesy of the media) your average Israeli Does want peace, go about his day to day life, let the kids grow up, go to work, etc. However, this would not be realistic with it's neighbours and it is just not going to happen though until security is 100% assured.
  3. In most cases the barbarism is coming from Arabs who want to wipe Israel off the map....so is she expected to lay back and die? Of course not.

    OOh look! The author tries to say Israel is a Nazi society? Wonder how the 170,000 Israeli Arabs feel about living in such a place where they have the same rights and even Knesset members? Wonder why the IDF continues to let food etc INTO Gaza despite the constant attacks. How many Pali terrorists did Israeli hospitals save depite their attempting to kill medical staff last year? Quite a few.

    The article claims that the Palis are : "resilient, dignified Palestinian people who refuse to submit quietly and give up resisting Israel’s arrogance." Funny how no-one else uses suicide bombs at fast food stalls. How dignified. Wonder if this silly moo has actually visited Israel or is she getting her info from Juan Cole, Noam Chromky and John Pilger? The tragedies of 1948 - hmm who invaded the sovereign state of Israel (as declared by the UN) in 1948? Several different Arab Armies....

    On the sidebar - Gilad Atzmon - likens the IDF to the Wehrmacht???? and he says that for the Palis to invade a sovereign country (Israel) to snatch a soldier was legitimate! Well Atzmon is known more for his support of Pali suicide bombers rather than his own people so that was an unbiased website all round! Next time Israel attacks Pali terrorists (who always hide behind their women and children) then he can't complain can he as they're only doing what his mates are!

    If you are going to start a debate can you discuss both sides and not just quote the usual left wing talking points. The IDF and Israeli people are fighting to get back 3 of their soldiers and stop the rocket attacks (1400 rockets at the last count in a year!) - meanwhile the Arabs let millions die because they don't care about their own people! Who would you rather have on your side?

    The number of CIA analysts that have been found to be Democrat supporters who have deliberately broken their pledge of service in order to try and get at Bush or Israel is unreal. Many of the problems stem from the Clinton era but amazingly no CIA analysts broke cover then.... no wonder the CIA haven't got a scobbie what is going on half the time.

    The Palis had the chance for everything they wanted after Oslo but yet again Arafat turned the chance down. Obviously wanting to add a few million more to the millions he screwed out of his own people.

    They'll be claiming Bush served a fake turkey in Iraq next....
  4. Whilst Israel has the backing of the US it will continue to do what it wants. Considering that there are more than 69 UN resolutions against the actions of Israel since 1955, why has the US never felt the compunction to attack Israel? This is almost as many resolutions as the UN passed against Iraq. Considering this was one of the main basis's for the attack on Iraq, why don't the US apply global justice in equal measures, across the world? Israeli interference in US politics. Whilst you have Israeli interference in US Politics you will continue to have problems in the Region. One of Israel's main imports is Military equipment and technology, all supplied by Uncle Sam. If the US stopped supporting Israel you would see a lot less islamic extremism directed at the west. You have to remember that the state of Israel was brought about by zionist terrorists who attacked British Troops in Palestine after WW2. (I know this is a simplistic view but it is mostly true).

    Admittedly in this latest crisis, the Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza have brought it on themselves, by kidnapping the Israeli soldiers, the Israelis just need to temper their response a bit. Look at how we reacted when two of our SF soldiers got lifted in Basra. We drove a Warrior through a police station, but at least we didn't aerial bomb most of Al-Hayyaniyah or Quarmat-Ali looking for them.

    Peace Out.
  5. The whole point is that Israel and now to an extent Iraq are the forefront of a move to try and get democracy into the Middle East. The difficulties are excaberated by the way Islam for example will not allow proper 'democratic' government if it removes the power of the Mullah/Iman. They really do need a Reformation of some sort in the Middle East to let the people prosper. For goodness sake all that oil money and it gets wasted by fat Saudi princes on holidays and women in London or Cairo! Look at some smaller Arab countires and the standard of living is fantastic - look at Saudi, Iran and other Arab/Persian countries and it is crap for the majority.

    If Israel is so bad how come there are so many people wanting to stay there. The latest poll in East Jerusalem showed that 72% of the Arab populace wanted to stay under Israel rule!

    The problem is not Israel (although she should ceasefire once her soldiers are back) in the main but the Arab states around her who are refusing to let their people have the same freedoms and achieve their potential. Maybe this will shake some of them into changing and stopping support for terrorist organisations. This is not just about Israel and the PA/Hezbolah/Hamas/Fatah it is about Syria and Iran in the background.
  6. What the world seems to have conveniently forgotten is that the Israelites were only ONE of literally hundreds of tribes who populated the area, and the 1948 resolution founding the state of Israel only gave them a PART of the country. But they wanted it all and topped almost a million Palestinians in the process. However, the modern take is that all the aggression is coming from the Palestinians and the Israelis are only reacting. That's wasn't true then and it's certainly not true now.

    I'm not saying that the Palestinians are angels, but the way the Israelis are actingat the moment can only make the situation worse and it could very well progress to a full-blown war if larger powers see their interests in the region severely threatened. This is going to get very much worse before it gets better. And all because of the intransigience of the Israelis.

    A very interesting and insightful book which I read recently is: "Beyond Chutzpah: On The Misuse of Anti-semitism and the Abuse of History" by Norman Finkelstein. I can highly recommend it.

  7. Hang on - isn't Mahmoud Abbas the elected Palestinian president? And didn't a new Palestinian parliament recently get elected in - one dominated by Hamas, which may not have been the result that Israel/the US wanted, but is still a democratic election?

    I'd say that Palestine was doing more to bring about Arab democracy than America (and Britain) is managing in Iraq. The constant Israeli complaint that they have no 'partner for peace' is wearing somewhat thin. As for relations with Lebanon, well, there won't be a partner for peace if you systematically degrade the infrastructure that allows the (democratic) Lebanese government to govern, and even less so when they're next able to hold elections and the populace votes for whomever takes the hardest anti-Israeli line, as a reaction to the fact that they're having shit bombed out of them.

    From my perspective, Israel seems to be doing all it can to prevent a partner for peace from emerging. Abbas has been given nothing that he can go to the Palestinian people with to say 'This is what negotiation can achieve;' the mechanics of Lebanon's ability to police Hizbullah are being systematically degraded even as I type. Instead, Israel's actions - the Wall, the air raids on Lebanon, the constant appropriation of land and resources, control of movement, arrest of the elected politicians, internment without charge of suspected militants, cover-ups of civilian casualties, and the rest - all seem to be directed towards preventing a climate in which peace might flourish.

    Talking of Gaza, I'm concerned about what's happening there. The news has been so swamped with matters in Lebanon that the other Israeli military action that's going on has dropped off the radar.

    I'm not disputing that Israel has a right to security. I am saying that Israel's security would be better served by restraint and constructive engagement, rather than a refusal to engage and a propensity to destroy. I don't know whether it's simply a siege mindset that has collectively gripped the decision-making levels of Israeli society - or, more cynically and sinisterly, whether it's a deliberate attempt to extinguish all chances for a negotiated peace, with the aim of grabbing everything they can by force.

  8. Also, look at the inflammatory statements about Syrian backing coming from Simple Simian and its poodle. This is either idiotic or designed to embolden the Israelis even further. As said on another post, this evacuation needs to happen very quickly as it is indeed going to get a lot worse
  9. Has Israel lost direction completely?

    I don't think so!

    Israel is a secular state, and the only properly functioning democracy in the Middle East: not perfect, I'll grant, but who is? It's a pluralistic society: there are Arabs in the Knesset, IDF (incl in senior positions), and practising in all the "learned professions", & in business, the arts etc.. Most Israelis, IMO, long for lasting peace; would love to see normalisation of their economy etc, and be free to live securely as a prosperous Mediterranean/ Levantine state. But, what to do when one's neighbours are in thrall to wicked & corrupt maniacs who want Israel wiped off the map?! And that's the reality, I'm afraid.

    IMO many British perceptions/ attitudes are skewed because the received "truth" of what's going on comes via "specialists" in the FCO, media etc who are inherently pro-Arab. Why this "institutional" bias? Don't know for sure, but my personal theory is that it MAY have something to do with cultural norms/ practices. Israelis are, on the whole, famously (notoriously?!) direct, blunt even, when doing business in any sphere, and our predominantly "jolly" chaps/ chapesses in the aforementioned organisations just can't cope with this, preferring the more "subtle", elliptical/ allusive - and, frankly (at the risk of being called "racist"!) often downright duplicitous, Arab way of going about things.
  10. I fully agree that Israel has the right to retaliate.

    What I think is short sighted and basically stupid is to bomb the cr#p out of Beirut and send the Lebanese economy into free fall. They state that Hamas/Hezbellah are the culprits. It is known that Southern Lebanon is their main area of support and their camps (just like Armagh was for PIRA). Why then didn't they bomb that area and blast it to bits, whilst at the same time try to get assistance from the govt in Beirut?

    No-one is shelling Jerusalem, Lebanon has not done air strikes or Naval bombardments, yet in 6 days they have destroyed an infrastructure that has been steadily built up over the last 6 years and providing some stability in the region.

    All this does is drive more people into the arms of the extremists while Israel flails around like a big boy stamping on other kids sandcastles on the beach, not reaching their intended target but justifying their actions in order to get public support for a possible incursion again.

    It is just stoking the embers again and will knock back any hopes of peace for years to come. :wink:
  11. i'd just like to say that with any other country apart from israel id e up in arms about the conflict, however israel is in a situation where any sign of weakness will be exploited by the hundreds of groups that oppose it, if it acts weakly in this situation it attracts more violence against it, if it acts strongly it attracts violence but takes a few of its enemy with it. it has been attacked day in day out for years and i think theyve just had enough of it and are fighting back
  12. I think we have a war going on. In past problems, Israel has launched pre-emptive strikes followed very quickly by attacks in force on vital areas or links.
    That has not happened this time. Their quarry is everywhere and hidden behind human shields. I cannot see any Arab force beating them but I do not see any 6 Day War scenario here either. Major problem I see is that if/when HB leadership and Israel get round a table, the extremists in HN will wreck any basis for an agreement. How do you negotiate with someone who is committed to the total destruction of your country and your race?
  13. Hezbolla only offered indirect negotiations, however, whatever agreement may be reached in an unlikely situation of direct talks would probably die a death as has been the case with the Pals.

    You dont!
  14. What a thoroughly enlightened view! So everyone just tries to top all on the other side until the last man's left standing. How civilised! I don't fückin' think!

    The problem is that Israel bought all these problems on its own head when it laid claim to the whole territory. Israel was only supposed to emcompass a part of the region, but the extremists wanted it all. That's the crux of the problem and it's what's holding back negotiations on a reasonable solution.