Has/is the Ex-Sister-in-Law commited or is committing fraud?

#1
OK guys, just would like a quick heads up if the Ex-Sister-in-Law is or has committed some type of Fraud.

My wife's brother got married about 10 yrs ago. She's was a divorcee who's ex was paying off the mortgage on the family home. My BiL arranged a new joint mortgage to pay off the ex-husband and an additional amount to extend the house, in which he did (he's a builder by trade)

Through one reason or another (he couldn't keep his cock in his pants) after 3-4 years they seperated and he left the family home to move in with scrubber Nº 3. I'm not sure of the technicalities but because he couldn't keep up the payments on the joint mortgage, he somehow went into some type of voluntary bankruptcy. We understand his ex was paying off the interest only on the mortgage with no re-payment mechanism in place. o_O

Anyway, he's been sending her divorce papers every year which she refuses to sign and I believe the BiL is either too skint or stupid to find another avenue to divorce her.

The point has come to a head where by he's now found out (by chance looking on Right Move) that their family home has been sold STC. We know he's still on the mortgage as it was confirmed when he enquired coincidentally in the bank about a month ago and found that unbeknown to him, not only has she re-mortgaged the house with him on it a few years back, she's also added £56k of various credit and store cards she owns.

So my questions are:
  • Has she committed fraud by re-mortgaging their home without him knowing and added a huge amount to it he may not liable for?
  • Can she sell without his permission and what checks are in place to ensure that he's in agreement to the sell and will eventually be the recipient to some of the profit as he contibuted to the mortgage for several years?

We know she's done a few naughties with financials before when he found out she had taken out several joint loans he didn't sign up to. Also, and ironically, she's a mortgage manager in a high street bank and probably knows all the in's and out's of what she can get away with. (The mortgage and nearly all her financials dealings are never with the bank that employ's her)

I know some of the above may sound obvious but I just need to be clear. The BiL BTW is an admin nightmare. His heart is in the right place and is pretty trusting, it's just that he has a silly habit of shagging scutters and getting caught. Also, we now believe she's delaying the divorce as it's a way to appear that they're still together for her dodgy practices.

We just want the BiL to get what he's owed and if she has committed fraud, then she should get her just desserts legally and from the bank, as her integrity would be trashed.

Thanks in advance :)
 
#3
If they have been separated for more than 5 years he can divorce her without her consent:

Reasons for divorce in England - five years separation

As regards the house, I am not a conveyancer but it all sounds a bit dodgy. If his name is on the deeds as joint tennant she should not be able to sell without his agreement or a court order, which she is unlikely to get without his knowledge.

He should tell the estate agent selling the house of the situation and also the solicitor acting for her; they are unlikely to want to be involved in any scam
 
#4
Is he bankrupt or just an IVA?

If he was bancrupt chances are she will have been offered a chance to buy his equity in the property, therefore meaning he has no claim.

If it was an IVA and the property remains joint then she could have had charges placed against the house for failure to pay her unsecured debts.

The conveyancer will prepare a completion statement. Everything linked to the house will be there, the same via a land registry search.
 
#5
Don't know the legal ins and outs but do know it's a high risk game she's playing and one that will likely cost her her job and any future career in the financial sector if caught out and not found to be squeaky clean.
 
#6
1. If it was a joint mortgage on a jointly owned property then she should not be able to extend without his co-operation and his signature.
2. If it was a jointly owned property then she should not have been able to sell without his consent.
3. As they were married, the court has jurisdiction under the matrimonial causes act to make orders regarding property and other assets on divorce. It can also make orders (under section 37 of that act) to prevent disposal of property or to undo transfers already made in certain circumstances, or to freeze assets (eg the proceeds of sale if held in a bank account).

On the face of it it would seem quite likely that she may have done something dodgy (eg forged a signature). He is entitled to disclosure by the bank, etstae agent, mortgage company etc as he is a joint owner/joint mortgagor.

However the real answer is he will never know fully and never achieve a remedy unless and until he goes to see a family lawyer, issues divorce proceedings and issues an application for ancillary relief. The sooner he does so the better as he appears to have a house that has been sold behind his back, and he hasn't a scooby what has happened to the proceeds of sale. If they all get spent before he does anything then the court cannot magic them back so he is at risk of being left with sod all. My advice to him would be to pull his finger out and ask a professional, rather than asking his sisters husband if he could find out from some internet whackos what they all think, and he should do it pretty sharpish too.

Rather depressingly the police aren't usually interested in marital misbehaviour of this kind either, so even if she has committed some kind of fraud he may find little assistance on that front.

See a lawyer.
 
#7
Is he bankrupt or just an IVA?

If he was bancrupt chances are she will have been offered a chance to buy his equity in the property, therefore meaning he has no claim.

If it was an IVA and the property remains joint then she could have had charges placed against the house for failure to pay her unsecured debts.

The conveyancer will prepare a completion statement. Everything linked to the house will be there, the same via a land registry search.
I don't believe he was offered a chance to be bought out, he just stopped paying AFAIK she managed to continue the payments, and subsequant re-mortgage, by herself, albeit interest only.

He says Bankrupt, although it could be some tyoe of IVA, he's very generic in his vocab and to him specific is "that big ocean with Hawaii in!"

If there was any action taken against him for non-payments, would he have to have been contacted?

sundance said:
Don't know the legal ins and outs but do know it's a high risk game she's playing and one that will likely cost her her job and any future career in the financial sector if caught out and not found to be squeaky clean.
We know that she's forged his signature before for joint loans, but for reasons unknown he's done nothing about it. His admin is shite and with several girlfirends/abodes later from this one, his papers and details are allez uber die platz

schweik said:
My advice to him would be to pull his finger out and ask a professional, rather than asking his sisters husband if he could find out from some internet whackos what they all think, and he should do it pretty sharpish too.
Appreciate the advice, but he hasn't asked me to do anything. I only found out at 9pm last night (an hour after he did), so he was still in a daze where to start. I just need to point him in the right direction. He's unemployed, pretty skint so is scared this will cost his dearly for any legal advice that may not come to fruition.


Cheers all for the help so far
 

walkyrie

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
#8
Appreciate the advice, but he hasn't asked me to do anything. I only found out at 9pm last night (an hour after he did), so he was still in a daze where to start. I just need to point him in the right direction. He's unemployed, pretty skint so is scared this will cost his dearly for any legal advice that may not come to fruition.
Back to the public domain for general advice....

Get him down the Citizens Advice pronto
Try and find a local solicitor who'll spare him half an hour for free
Make lots of loud noises at the mortgage company. It can't be sold without their consent and has been mentioned they're unlikely to want to be involved in a potential fraud.
 
#9
Back to the public domain for general advice....

Get him down the Citizens Advice pronto
Try and find a local solicitor who'll spare him half an hour for free
Make lots of loud noises at the mortgage company. It can't be sold without their consent and has been mentioned they're unlikely to want to be involved in a potential fraud.
Cheers Wal, PM sent and thanks.

I'm gonna call him now and tell him to seek as much legal advice as possible.
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#10
You could look at this another way - wife is abandoned by cheating, financially incompetent husband who doesn't even pay his wack of a mortgage she can't afford on her own. By dint of scraping and some fast financial moves, coupled with what sounds like having to resort to credit cards to tide her over, she manages to keep her home through a nasty recession and a crashing house market. Finally, after 5 years of hell she manages to offload the place. And now her ex wants a piece of what she's worked for. If anyone needs a lawyer it's her.
 
#11
You could look at this another way - wife is abandoned by cheating, financially incompetent husband who doesn't even pay his wack of a mortgage she can't afford on her own. By dint of scraping and some fast financial moves, coupled with what sounds like having to resort to credit cards to tide her over, she manages to keep her home through a nasty recession and a crashing house market. Finally, after 5 years of hell she manages to offload the place. And now her ex wants a piece of what she's worked for. If anyone needs a lawyer it's her.
Nice try.:)

Some more details have come to light. It transpires that the credit/store cards were added to the mortgage during their time together, although they were a legacy of her time before they met. The mortgage company confirmed these details this morning. He agreed to add them in when they remortgaged all those years ago. In all the excitement he obviously forgot he took on a stack of her debts. I told you he was an admin vortex.

The estate agents were surprised he turned up, as she has told them that she is the only name now on the deeds & mortgage, both of which we now know to be untrue.

The BiL will be receiveing a letter from her Solicitors in the next few days, what is says reamins to be seen.

I do agree though about his financial incompentancy, and I'm still not exactly sure why he went into involuntary bankruptcy.

Incidentally has just wants back what he paid in mortgage payments or a similar (modest) lump sum and a divorce. Not too severe I would offer, he did jointly pay the mortgage for several years and extend the house to improve it's resell value after all.
 
#12
Nice try.:)

Some more details have come to light. It transpires that the credit/store cards were added to the mortgage during their time together, although they were a legacy of her time before they met. The mortgage company confirmed these details this morning. He agreed to add them in when they remortgaged all those years ago. In all the excitement he obviously forgot he took on a stack of her debts. I told you he was an admin vortex.

The estate agents were surprised he turned up, as she has told them that she is the only name now on the deeds & mortgage, both of which we now know to be untrue.

The BiL will be receiveing a letter from her Solicitors in the next few days, what is says reamins to be seen.

I do agree though about his financial incompentancy, and I'm still not exactly sure why he went into involuntary bankruptcy.

Incidentally has just wants back what he paid in mortgage payments or a similar (modest) lump sum and a divorce. Not too severe I would offer, he did jointly pay the mortgage for several years and extend the house to improve it's resell value after all.
Looks like he did a great job.

2-Fallen_shacks_in_Morro_do_Bumba_after_rainfall.jpeg
 
C

cloudbuster

Guest
#13
I get the feeling he's going to get raped, although she may not come out of this entirely unscathed.
 
#15
I get the feeling he's going to get raped, although she may not come out of this entirely unscathed.
It's our feeling too CB.

It's not uinfeasible that she may have lost her job or that she may be moving abroad. The main issue to him is that she's selling the house without informing him even though he's on the deeds and the mortgage. His non-payments are academic, he still jointly owns the property.
 
#16
Most solicitors will do a first free advice interview. Sounds like he could use some advice. CAB also run clinics which solicitors staff. If he starts by asking a family lawyer about the divorce then goes on from there. If he asks about fraud likely to be referred to the police rather than advised. Hope he gets it sorted.
 
#17
There was a similar case in the courts and papers about a year or two back. The husband had moved out, wife never changed the names on the deeds and when she wanted to sell, twenty odd years later, she was surprised to find that he still owned a big lump of the property. I don't recall the decision, I think it mostly favoured the wife.

Wouldn't the dodgy signatures on financial papers have to be witnessed? It sounds very dodgy.
 
#18
There was a similar case in the courts and papers about a year or two back. The husband had moved out, wife never changed the names on the deeds and when she wanted to sell, twenty odd years later, she was surprised to find that he still owned a big lump of the property. I don't recall the decision, I think it mostly favoured the wife.

Wouldn't the dodgy signatures on financial papers have to be witnessed? It sounds very dodgy.
From what she told the estate agents, she soley owns the property as she 'bought out' my BiL some years back because of his bankruptcy. It's completeley feasible that she believes this and may have been diddled by some scheming solicitor with the exchanging of a few quid and some psuedo-legal paperwork.

Alternatively, she know's full well that he's on the mortgage and the deeds and intends to defraud by forging his signature. It's not far-fetched, we now know that she did take a couple of joint loans out without my BiL knowing while they were together (It may be some of that that led to his bankruptcy?)

The interesting thing is; What has she told her conveyencing solicitor? They're likely to get a shock when they request the deeds and they arrive with his name on them. Also, when they make enquires regarding the outstanding balance on the old mortgage and he's on there too.

My money is on her committing some type of forgery/fraud and doing a runner. I can't possibly belive that she's that thick/naive/ignorant to believe that she's owns the whole house and is entitled to everything. She was a mortgage/finance manager in a bank for a 20+ years.
 
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