Has General Richards lost the plot?

#1
RAF urged to cut ‘Cold War’ new jets for cheap propeller aircraft
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Tom Coghlan, Defence Correspondent 54 Comments
Recommend? (6) The RAF is under pressure to cut its multibillion-pound orders for fast jets in favour of cheaper propeller aircraft as part of a review of defence spending. The suggestion, from General Sir David Richards, has ignited a debate that pitches the head of the Army against his opposite numbers in the other two Services.

General Richards, Chief of the General Staff, believes that the Super Tucano offers a cost-effective alternative to fast jets such as the Cold War-era Eurofighter Typhoon in counter-insurgency operations such as those in Afghanistan. Resembling something from the Second World War, a Super Tucano costs about £5 million, a fraction of the £60 million estimated cost of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter ordered for the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carriers or the £67 million of a Typhoon.

A strategic defence review expected after the general election is likely to recommend that each Service’s budget is cut by about 20 per cent.
Times article

Its reasons like this that I dont want the RAF amalgamated into the army. This idea has appeared on arrse several times and has always been shown as the complete folly it is. But now the head of the army? God it scares me that he has allowed to make policy if he comes up with ideas like that.
 
#3
Funnily enough I asked if the Super Tucano would make a useful tool a year or two ago.
The resident experts on winged matters explained it was a daft idea, I have no more reason to disbelieve them now than I did then....

I'm sure the good General is a very intelligent fella but unless the RAF, RN and Army get their collective act together and start presenting a united front on defence spending they will be guilty of letting this country down.
The defence of this country does not hinge on the next few years in Afghanistan.
If we cannot afford the tools to defend the UK and achieve success in Afghanistan at the same time then leave the Americans to it.
The function of all three services it the defence of this country, non of the three can ensure that on thier own.
 
#6
I was reading the stats on the Tucano online the other day and there is a compelling case for them being our chosen air to ground platform. But it would be very much for "the war" not a war". And the light-blue would moan that that they don't go fast enough probably.




(although it would restore some class to the RAF, since we all know that flying stopped being gentlemanly with the advent of the jet engine)
 
#7
instinct said:
RAF urged to cut ‘Cold War’ new jets for cheap propeller aircraft
Image :1 of 2
Tom Coghlan, Defence Correspondent 54 Comments
Recommend? (6) The RAF is under pressure to cut its multibillion-pound orders for fast jets in favour of cheaper propeller aircraft as part of a review of defence spending. The suggestion, from General Sir David Richards, has ignited a debate that pitches the head of the Army against his opposite numbers in the other two Services.

General Richards, Chief of the General Staff, believes that the Super Tucano offers a cost-effective alternative to fast jets such as the Cold War-era Eurofighter Typhoon in counter-insurgency operations such as those in Afghanistan. Resembling something from the Second World War, a Super Tucano costs about £5 million, a fraction of the £60 million estimated cost of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter ordered for the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carriers or the £67 million of a Typhoon.

A strategic defence review expected after the general election is likely to recommend that each Service’s budget is cut by about 20 per cent.
Times article

Its reasons like this that I dont want the RAF amalgamated into the army. This idea has appeared on arrse several times and has always been shown as the complete folly it is. But now the head of the army? God it scares me that he has allowed to make policy if he comes up with ideas like that.
The idea of an integrated Armed Force, such as what the US Marine Corp is, seems to work in practice. Can't call them a complete folly. Bloody good and better to work with than either US Army or Airforce as it removes a lot of the internal politics that our armed forces fight against.

Like to explain why it would be such a folly? Or is it just UK historical prejudice getting in the way of a workable (but difficult to introduce) idea?
 

Legs

ADC
Book Reviewer
#8
Virgin International have nicer passenger jets, and P&O can ship out vehicles and troops. Job jobbed.
 
#11
Fallschirmjager said:
Legs said:
Virgin International have nicer passenger jets, and P&O can ship out vehicles and troops. Job jobbed.
Yep, we travelled back by Virgin Airways from Herrick 4. Much better than Crabways.

Mmmmh, were the hostess's wearing them red high heels like they do on the telly?
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#12
Either that or the A10 maybe. Since the Afghans ran out of anti-aircraft missiles, stuff in the sky has been relatively safe to drop bombs with.
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#13
instinct said:
Its reasons like this that I dont want the RAF amalgamated into the army. This idea has appeared on arrse several times and has always been shown as the complete folly it is. But now the head of the army? God it scares me that he has allowed to make policy if he comes up with ideas like that.
You miss the point. If the RAF were amalgamated into the army - perhaps as the Royal Flying Corps - CGS would be fighting tooth and nail to preserve the 'critical' JSF capability from the claws of the rapacious Treasury. As it's the Crabs, they can fuck themselves.
 
#14
jagman said:
Fallschirmjager said:
Legs said:
Virgin International have nicer passenger jets, and P&O can ship out vehicles and troops. Job jobbed.
Yep, we travelled back by Virgin Airways from Herrick 4. Much better than Crabways.

Mmmmh, were the hostess's wearing them red high heels like they do on the telly?
Yes they were. All in their red suits. They couldn't take their eyes off me!
 
#15
You can see his point though. With the Army committed to AFG and that alone, with a constant stream of dead and wounded coming back to the UK, the average squaddie on HERRICK scans the skies for aid and who does he see ? The USAF. Oh, and Apache. With maybe the odd RAF ac now and again. Meanwhile, back on R&R he comes across the RAF press machine justifying spending eye watering sums on Typhoon which has, to date, delivered zero effect in theatre. And when ac are deployed the %ge of the fleet deployed is pretty pitiful. So, if you can't understand why the Army is increasingly hacked off with the RAF you haven't been paying attention.

That said, the General is wrong. Equipping only for "the war" is a really, really stupid thing to do. What else is he supposed to do though, given that we can't afford both at the monent ? Apart from lead a military coup, that is.
 
#17
Tucano appears to have been used in COIN operations in S America previously - it's almost the case that it's like the old Jet Provost which had a COIN variant ("StrikeMaster", if memory serves).

In other news - lucky-white-heather

A fighter pilot who survived the crash of his training jet plunged to his death with a rescuer Wednesday after a cord broke as they were being pulled up to a helicopter, an Ecuador military official said.

The pilot, identified as Rafael Durango, and an unidentified co-pilot, had earlier ejected safely from their MK-89 Strikemaster before it crashed into a jungle near the Colombian border.

Ecuadorean military officials said two helicopters were sent to recover them.

But an air force official later said the rescue went awry as Durango and a rescuer were being lifted up to one of the hovering choppers.

"A cord that was attached to a helicopter broke and the pilot and one of the rescuers fell, dying in the rescue operation,'' the official said.

The second pilot was successfully rescued, the official said.

Colonel Hugo Lanas, an Ecuadorean air force spokesman, said earlier that the MK-89 Strikemaster was on a training mission in northeastern Sucumbios province when it crashed.

There is a heavy military presence in the area because of frequent incursions by Colombian guerrillas.

It was the Ecuadorean air force's second plane crash in less than a week.

On Thursday, a twin-engine Beechcraft 200 propeller plane crashed into an apartment building during a training exercise, killing seven people on board as well as two on the ground in northern Quito.
 
#18
One_of_the_strange said:
You can see his point though. With the Army committed to AFG and that alone, with a constant stream of dead and wounded coming back to the UK, the average squaddie on HERRICK scans the skies for aid and who does he see ? The USAF. Oh, and Apache. With maybe the odd RAF ac now and again. Meanwhile, back on R&R he comes across the RAF press machine justifying spending eye watering sums on Typhoon which has, to date, delivered zero effect in theatre. And when ac are deployed the %ge of the fleet deployed is pretty pitiful. So, if you can't understand why the Army is increasingly hacked off with the RAF you haven't been paying attention.

That said, the General is wrong. Equipping only for "the war" is a really, really stupid thing to do. What else is he supposed to do though, given that we can't afford both at the monent ? Apart from lead a military coup, that is.
Yes I can see why he is focussing entirely on the current war.Yes I can see why the Army finds the level of RAF presence a tad irritating.
However, the RAF plays the same game as the Army and the RN of trying to work with limited resources.
The answer isn't to strip more assets away from them though.
If Tucano will genuienly work the way he believe it will then fine, order a hundred tomorow, but not at the expense of leaving UK airspace undefended. You can't have everything without spending money, no money then something has to give but it should never be defence of the UK.

As I said earlier, if we as a nation cannot afford to pay for the defence of the UK and Afghanistan, then walk away from Afghanistan. Preferably the day before the RN earns its keep and turns the whole place to a sheet of glass.
 
#19
Now let me see. Would I prefer to be backed up by a platoon strength with all of the latest high end, expensive gadgetry or a regiment with slightly older gadgetry but was still up to the job?

There is only so much money around at the moment since our government and financial sector lost it all so if I was running the company I know which way I would go.
 
#20
RN - RAF - Army

About the size of the USMC.
 

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