Harry Dunn killed by US diplomat's wife

Let your son/or daughter get killed and the perpetrator get a get out of jail card without an investigation.

See if you let it go.
You are spot on, and I did think that to myself, what would I be doing if I were in her situation. Did Ann Sacoolas break the law by mistakenly driving on the wrong side of the road? Or did she break the law by doing a runner under Diplomatic Immunity?

Or was a crime committed by those who facilitated her escape back to the US?

Ann Sacoolas will live in purgatory for the rest if her days reliving the accident, that is justice enough, no more.

But either way if she doesn't let it go she is never going to be able to move on.
 
Or did she break the law by doing a runner under Diplomatic Immunity?

Or was a crime committed by those who facilitated her escape back to the US?
Neither. Under diplomatic privilege the Sending State withdrew her from the Receiving State, all in accordance with the Vienna Convention 1961. She did not do a 'runner', and she did not 'escape'.

It is a truly sad case, which the US chose to apply Treaty conditions rather than the more pragmatic British approach of 'do the crime, face the time' (unless the matter is political, facing execution, or no hope of a fair trial)
 
Neither. Under diplomatic privilege the Sending State withdrew her from the Receiving State, all in accordance with the Vienna Convention 1961. She did not do a 'runner', and she did not 'escape'.

It is a truly sad case, which the US chose to apply Treaty conditions rather than the more pragmatic British approach of 'do the crime, face the time' (unless the matter is political, facing execution, or no hope of a fair trial)

'do the crime, face the time'

No crime committed, no time to do.
 

Buddy!

War Hero
Is it time for Charlotte Charles, the mother of Harry Dunn to let it go. She says she wants to know more about what went on, to get more disclosure from the US on Ann Sacoolas so they can get her brought back to face the UK Justice system.

Ann Sacoolas made a mistake by driving on the wrong side of the road, Harry Dunn was killed, it was a sad and tragic accident and there will be no justice.

What else can be achieved by bringing Ann Sacoolas back to the UK.

Time to move on.
I don't think so.

Do you have children?
 
I don't think so.

Do you have children?
Yes I've got two grown up boys, and if it was down to me I would want Mrs Sacoolas strung up by the yard arm, hung drawn and quartered. But the point I'm trying to make is that Harry's mother is pissing in the wind.

She wont get justice in any form, so celebrate the times they had with him and move on.
 

BratMedic

LE
Book Reviewer
I reckon this should still be pursued by FCO if only to highlight the one sided arrangement between the US and the UK.
 
See @Filthy_contract comment, she didn't do a runner, she didn't escape. She made a mistake and the US facilitated her removal in order to prevent her from facing prosecution.
Why would she face prosecution if, as you say, she didn't commit a crime?
 
See @Filthy_contract comment, she didn't do a runner, she didn't escape. She made a mistake and the US facilitated her removal in order to prevent her from facing prosecution.
Ah, so you meant "no crime committed in departing the country". Fairy Nuff.
 
'do the crime, face the time'

No crime committed, no time to do.
UK diplomats are expected to adhere to the local laws as well as UK or 'municipal' laws. If a diplomat was to do the same in, say, Italy, FCO would expect that UK national to face local justice and would wave diplomatic privileges. I'm no lawyer, but in this case although a criminal act may have taken place, there is no legal 'personality' of the accused.
 

Buddy!

War Hero
Yes I've got two grown up boys, and if it was down to me I would want Mrs Sacoolas strung up by the yard arm, hung drawn and quartered. But the point I'm trying to make is that Harry's mother is pissing in the wind.

She wont get justice in any form, so celebrate the times they had with him and move on.
I agree, it certainly is a David vs. Goliath situation, but there's no way I'd be piping down if this was one of my children. I'd be exploiting every avenue to get the issue raised to the forefront.

The buck doesn't stop with Sacoolas in my eyes, this is poor oversight and management by those responsible for USVF / exchange personnel. Where I grew up, there were lots of Americans, and the majority of their personal vehicles (shipped over from the states) were smashed up / involved in local accidents... This was years ago now, clearly it's an enduring issue.

If this was the other way around, I couldn't see it flying for one minute.
 
I agree, it certainly is a David vs. Goliath situation, but there's no way I'd be piping down if this was one of my children. I'd be exploiting every avenue to get the issue raised to the forefront.

The buck doesn't stop with Sacoolas in my eyes, this is poor oversight and management by those responsible for USVF / exchange personnel. Where I grew up, there were lots of Americans, and the majority of their personal vehicles (shipped over from the states) were smashed up / involved in local accidents... This was years ago now, clearly it's an enduring issue.

If this was the other way around, I couldn't see it flying for one minute.
Poor oversight and management by whom?

Mrs and Mrs Sacoolas were not covered under the US Visiting Forces Regulations - one serving partner was accredited as a diplomat and the Vienna Convention (qv) afforded the serving officer and their family diplomatic privilege which includes, amongst many other things, immunity for local prosecution and exemption from local taxes. Interestingly, diplomatic privileges are also extended to accompanying Governesses, Manservants and polygamous partners (where the Sending State allows for such).

And before anyone says that we should just ignore the Vienna convention, there are two points to bear in mind:

  1. Treaties, when ratified, become past of UK 'municipal' law.
  2. Reciprocity. If we do something, the other State will do the same...
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
Exactly the same rules apply to UK diplomats and their families in the US. The differences are that the FCO would generally NOT exercise diplomatic privilege in a case such as this.
And yet, you mention this in post 1995:- " Reciprocity. If we do something, the other State will do the same..."
 
And yet, you mention this in post 1995:- " Reciprocity. If we do something, the other State will do the same..."
If the other State did something punitive, I meant. So, for example, of the Northants Police had detained Mrs Sacoolas (which the Convention prohibits) expect the US to do the same to UK Diplomats in similar circumstances.

A common area of concern between countries is searching the luggage of diplomats and their families by Customs. In most cases it's because a low level member of staff has been a bit over zealous; typically reciprocal response can de delaying large diplomatic shipments, block Visa clearances etc.
 
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Sir Ivor Roberts, a former British ambassador in Serbia, Ireland and Italy, and who, after retiring from the diplomatic service was head of Trinity College, Oxford, says, in remarkably strong words for a diplomat, that Anne Sacoolas did not have diplomatic immunity, and cites the 1995 agreement regarding RAF Croughton.

BBC Link
 
This report - which I was about to also link to - argues that Mr Sacoolas should have had what's called 'administrative and technical ' privileges as a diplomat. In practice, this means his diplomatic privilege extends only to his duties and not to his family.

But this depends whether the US State Department presented him to the FCO for an A&T accreditation. I have sneaking suspicion that the US doesn't do that.

None of which is relevant as mrs Sacoolas will not be facing British courts any time soon, ie never.

Geoffrey Robinson QC? He is something like £2-3000 an hour to engage. I wonder how that's being funded.
 
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