Happy Hiroshima Day
- Thread starter Bigdumps
- Start date
Yep - it only took one more to stop the second world war and thus save many hundreds of thousands more lives.
The actions and behaviour of Japanese troops was evil, without conscience and led to the deaths of thousands of POW's, hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians as well as civilians all over Asia.
They had to be stopped and the rest of the world had to be given the message at the same time - Don't screw with us anymore or face the same.
The actions and behaviour of Japanese troops was evil, without conscience and led to the deaths of thousands of POW's, hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians as well as civilians all over Asia.
They had to be stopped and the rest of the world had to be given the message at the same time - Don't screw with us anymore or face the same.
Ask anyone who fought in Burma.
Anyone who was a POW (and remember they treated our POWs better than the Aussies, Malays and Eurasians).
Or those who had fought in Italy, France and Germany, only to be told they were on their way to fight the Japanese next.
Or indeed their own people who had been told to kill themselves and their children rather than surrender.
The original 'shock and awe'. A terrifying act, to prevent thousands even more horrible.
Anyone who was a POW (and remember they treated our POWs better than the Aussies, Malays and Eurasians).
Or those who had fought in Italy, France and Germany, only to be told they were on their way to fight the Japanese next.
Or indeed their own people who had been told to kill themselves and their children rather than surrender.
The original 'shock and awe'. A terrifying act, to prevent thousands even more horrible.
Yes I've had this conversation before with my grandfather, he was a POW and even he finds the bombing distasteful and arguably wrong.
The emperor was a figurehead, but only that? The entire philosophy behind Japan's military and empirica endeavours was state sponsored Shinto of which the emperor happened to be the head of. I am aware that many Japanese today partially blame the emperor for the war.
But hey, lets face it, after the bombing Japan could start afresh and they became an economic miracle.
The emperor was a figurehead, but only that? The entire philosophy behind Japan's military and empirica endeavours was state sponsored Shinto of which the emperor happened to be the head of. I am aware that many Japanese today partially blame the emperor for the war.
But hey, lets face it, after the bombing Japan could start afresh and they became an economic miracle.
Were the rest of the Allies consulted before the USA dropped the bombs, or was it just an American plan?
I think it was right. It is believed that many many more would have been killed in a conventional invasion of Japan.
Just to add questions to the debate, Would we have used it on Berlin if it had been completed 18 months earlier, and what would the world look like now if we had? Would the Germans have stuck their hands in the air at that point? Would Japan have seen the effects and surrendered with the threat of it being used?
I think it was right. It is believed that many many more would have been killed in a conventional invasion of Japan.
Just to add questions to the debate, Would we have used it on Berlin if it had been completed 18 months earlier, and what would the world look like now if we had? Would the Germans have stuck their hands in the air at that point? Would Japan have seen the effects and surrendered with the threat of it being used?
Theres some luvvie comment piece in todays graunaid, can't be arsed to go and find the link, saying it was mass murder.
I think that the outrage comes because it was a nuke, somehow their arguments always go on that somehow conventional attacks would have been better. But probably a lot more would have died as a result. The two bombs were a shock factor in that so much destruction could be wrought by a single bomb. It focussed the minds of the nips that the Americans could field thousands of planes, the fact they had no more bombs left was unknown to them.
I think it was elf n safetys fault. They failed to do a comprehensive risk assessment, otherwise they would have known that if you take on the worlds two superpowers, at that time, and don't deliver a knock out blow on day one you're fcuked. No point in whinging about it afterwards.
I think that the outrage comes because it was a nuke, somehow their arguments always go on that somehow conventional attacks would have been better. But probably a lot more would have died as a result. The two bombs were a shock factor in that so much destruction could be wrought by a single bomb. It focussed the minds of the nips that the Americans could field thousands of planes, the fact they had no more bombs left was unknown to them.
I think it was elf n safetys fault. They failed to do a comprehensive risk assessment, otherwise they would have known that if you take on the worlds two superpowers, at that time, and don't deliver a knock out blow on day one you're fcuked. No point in whinging about it afterwards.
Iron Maiden - Tailgunner
Trace your way back 50 years
To the Glow of Dresden - blood and tears
In the black above by the cruel searchlight
Men will die and men will fight - yeah !
Who shot who and who fired first ?
Dripping death to whet the bloodthirst
No radar lock on - skin and bone
The bomber boys are going home
Climb into the sky never wonder why - Tailgunner
You're a Tailgunner
Nail that Fokker kill that son.
Gonna blow your guts out with my gun
The weather forecasts good for War
Cologne and Frankfurt ? have some more !
Tail end Charlie in the boiling sky
The Enola Gay was my last try
Now that this Tailgunner's gone
No more Bombers ( just one big bomb )
Trace your way back 50 years
To the Glow of Dresden - blood and tears
In the black above by the cruel searchlight
Men will die and men will fight - yeah !
Who shot who and who fired first ?
Dripping death to whet the bloodthirst
No radar lock on - skin and bone
The bomber boys are going home
Climb into the sky never wonder why - Tailgunner
You're a Tailgunner
Nail that Fokker kill that son.
Gonna blow your guts out with my gun
The weather forecasts good for War
Cologne and Frankfurt ? have some more !
Tail end Charlie in the boiling sky
The Enola Gay was my last try
Now that this Tailgunner's gone
No more Bombers ( just one big bomb )
I realise that UK was there as an observer (I keep mistaking us as part of the USA these days!) but I meant the rest of the Allies. Especially the Aussies and Kiwis, both of whom were very involved in the Far East fighting. Were they consulted, or were they ignored, or seen as part of the British Empire and thus would agree to what ever UK decided?
Legs, I know the run up to the dropping of the bomb was a joint effort and I am certain that those non-american allies were consulted. I mean, can you imagine the bomb being dropped and Churchill saying 'WTF?'. No but really I imagine the people that needed to know were consulted.
The effort needed for the jerried to research, build and develop a nuclear bomb would have exhausted them (whilst still fighting a conventional war) and though may built two bombs and use them, they would still have lost, people might not like hearing it, but even after England got bombed say, the Allies would still have kept fighting and would have still one.
Just reading the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (Pacific), it clearly shows the Japanese knew they were getting hammered and were seeking some form of peace.
I found an online copy of the above survey,
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html#jstetw goto pages 25 and 26.
The effort needed for the jerried to research, build and develop a nuclear bomb would have exhausted them (whilst still fighting a conventional war) and though may built two bombs and use them, they would still have lost, people might not like hearing it, but even after England got bombed say, the Allies would still have kept fighting and would have still one.
Just reading the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (Pacific), it clearly shows the Japanese knew they were getting hammered and were seeking some form of peace.
I found an online copy of the above survey,
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html#jstetw goto pages 25 and 26.
Having just written an essay on this, (stand by!) you are missing out on one of the points that was raised.
The entry of Russia into the war would have meant that if they got their hands on Japan, it would have been the end of the Emperor (He had descended from the sun after all). On the other side, the Americans would be much more likely to let the Emperor stay in place, and they were the ones with the 10+ Aircraft carrier's and Battleships on Japans doorstep.
Whilst the USA had just lost an awful lot of men and ships, the Emperor still had significant sway with the Japanese people, and when MacArthur became head of the occupation, the first thing he did was try to win the support of Hirohito, and resisted calls for him to abdicate.
The Russians took the terms of the peace treaty liberally, and continued to hoover up as much land as possible (notably, splitting Korea in half with the Americans).
The entry of Russia into the war would have meant that if they got their hands on Japan, it would have been the end of the Emperor (He had descended from the sun after all). On the other side, the Americans would be much more likely to let the Emperor stay in place, and they were the ones with the 10+ Aircraft carrier's and Battleships on Japans doorstep.
Whilst the USA had just lost an awful lot of men and ships, the Emperor still had significant sway with the Japanese people, and when MacArthur became head of the occupation, the first thing he did was try to win the support of Hirohito, and resisted calls for him to abdicate.
The Russians took the terms of the peace treaty liberally, and continued to hoover up as much land as possible (notably, splitting Korea in half with the Americans).
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