Happy 200th Anniversary Karl Marx!

I'm interesting how many ARRSErs believe that capitalism is the most fair social system? And does capitalism exist in developed countries in its pure form - without any socialist components? In some countries like Sweden we see rather socialism with capitalist components.
I believe that it is a trend. Later or sooner (maybe in the next century) socialist components will dominate. And the Marxist idea would win but in the form that Marx himself was unable to predict.
Really? Even the Chinese seem to be heading more down the capitalism route.
 
I'm interesting how many ARRSErs believe that capitalism is the most fair social system? And does capitalism exist in developed countries in its pure form - without any socialist components? In some countries like Sweden we see rather socialism with capitalist components.
I believe that it is a trend.
That’s actually one of the few sensible things the Putinbot has ever posted.

Capitalism and socialism are not absolutes - they exist on a spectrum and almost everyone agrees that you need an element of both for an agreeable society. For starters, without some level of socialism those of us on Arrse who are actually in the military would be out of a job.
 
That’s actually one of the few sensible things the Putinbot has ever posted.

Capitalism and socialism are not absolutes - they exist on a spectrum and almost everyone agrees that you need an element of both for an agreeable society. For starters, without some level of socialism those of us on Arrse who are actually in the military would be out of a job.
Nah. Socialists is like islam in that it is spread via the sword.
 
One cannot fully compare communism with capitalism as the achievement of the former can only be made in a dictatorship where the market is regulated. Whereas capitalism relies on free market forces which are the baseline in participatory democracies where each individual is fully enfranchised.

A communist system is essentially a secular theocracy, run by a political priesthood which orders everyday life the way it believes it should be done. Non-believers are heretics and sinners who must be punished and removed from circulation. If they are not the whole system falls down.

In functional participatory democracies, the franchise ensures that all levels of society are represented in parliaments and social safety nets are in place. But the emphasis is is on individual rights and responsibilities, not on the usurpation of them by an all powerful State.
 
One should not confuse social democracy with socialism. The former can exist quite happily in a functioning participatory democracy, the latter is a stepping stone to a communist dictatorship. Labour under Corbyn is the transformation of a social democratic party to a communist one.
 

smeg-head

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Socialism, where informed debate results in the loss of privileges such as family, house and ultimately life. A veritable utopia for those who agree that everyone is equal but the politburo are more equal and get a bigger share of everything. Sorry, doesn't hold any appeal for me.
 
I'm interesting how many ARRSErs believe that capitalism is the most fair social system? And does capitalism exist in developed countries in its pure form - without any socialist components? In some countries like Sweden we see rather socialism with capitalist components.
I believe that it is a trend. Later or sooner (maybe in the next century) socialist components will dominate. And the Marxist idea would win but in the form that Marx himself was unable to predict.
Right now, it's liberalism with added socialism that's impinging on the capitalist system, thus making it less efficient & less able to finance the liberal/socialists' desire for "equality".
When there's no equality of input (they're not contributing according toe their ability), how can there be an equal reward?
 

smeg-head

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It’d be really nice if you could see your way clear to discussing sensibly, instead of acting like a petulant, childish twät trying desperately to big himself up.

MsG
Hello pot, regards kettle. Are you trying to say that you have changed John? I deduce the subtle aroma of bovine manure surrounding your existence.
 
One should not confuse social democracy with socialism. The former can exist quite happily in a functioning participatory democracy, the latter is a stepping stone to a communist dictatorship. Labour under Corbyn is the transformation of a social democratic party to a communist one.
Yes, OK strictly-speaking the mix of capitalism and lightweight socialism is indeed social democracy.
 
I would rather speculate on the what-ifs had not the Bolsheviks hijacked the original 1917 revolution, had the Soviets been prevented from occupying Eastern Europe in 1944-5 and imposing their stultifying dictatorship, had Chiang Kai Shek beaten Mao Tse Tung, etc.
The world is likely to have suffered much less in my estimation.
About 120 million less deaths for a start.
 

DaManBugs

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That’s actually one of the few sensible things the Putinbot has ever posted.
I beg to disagree! The so-called “Putinbot”, aka @KGB resident, has posted many times on the discrepancies between wannabe life and reality in Russian/the Soviet Union. He’s a child of the transition and, in principle, is in a position to furnish valuable information. But he’s simply decried as a “Putinbot” on ARRSE
Capitalism and socialism are not absolutes - they exist on a spectrum and almost everyone agrees that you need an element of both for an agreeable society. For starters, without some level of socialism those of us on Arrse who are actually in the military would be out of a job.
What you don’t seem to realise, Mattb, is that once humans realised they could achieve ostensible “superiority” over others simply by being in possession of more wealth, the humanitarian situation became ever more critical. There is no cosmic or other law stating that certain persons are more entitled to the fruits of the labour of any community. Indeed, the evidence points to the conclusion that tribes and other communities in the past shared spoils equally. So how does that square with just eight folks (all male, by the way) having the equivalent wealth of more than half the world’s population? And how did they come by their fortunes? Ever asked yourself?

MsG
 
I beg to disagree! The so-called “Putinbot”, aka @KGB resident, has posted many times on the discrepancies between wannabe life and reality in Russian/the Soviet Union. He’s a child of the transition and, in principle, is in a position to furnish valuable information. But he’s simply decried as a “Putinbot” on ARRSE

What you don’t seem to realise, Mattb, is that once humans realised they could achieve ostensible “superiority” over others simply by being in possession of more wealth, the humanitarian situation became ever more critical. There is no cosmic or other law stating that certain persons are more entitled to the fruits of the labour of any community. Indeed, the evidence points to the conclusion that tribes and other communities in the past shared spoils equally. So how does that square with just eight folks (all male, by the way) having the equivalent wealth of more than half the world’s population? And how did they come by their fortunes? Ever asked yourself?

MsG
Tribes used to bump off those who didn't pull their weight too.
I have many thousands of times the wealth of some poor bloke in India but it's life & opportunity, not capitalism that's kept him back.
Socialism merely ensures a multitude more are barely better off than he is.
The article itself demonstrates that: Strip these eight of their £350bn & share it between the 3.6bn poorest & they end up with less than £100 each.

You silly man.
 
I beg to disagree! The so-called “Putinbot”, aka @KGB resident, has posted many times on the discrepancies between wannabe life and reality in Russian/the Soviet Union. He’s a child of the transition and, in principle, is in a position to furnish valuable information. But he’s simply decried as a “Putinbot” on ARRSE

What you don’t seem to realise, Mattb, is that once humans realised they could achieve ostensible “superiority” over others simply by being in possession of more wealth, the humanitarian situation became ever more critical. There is no cosmic or other law stating that certain persons are more entitled to the fruits of the labour of any community. Indeed, the evidence points to the conclusion that tribes and other communities in the past shared spoils equally. So how does that square with just eight folks (all male, by the way) having the equivalent wealth of more than half the world’s population? And how did they come by their fortunes? Ever asked yourself?

MsG
Who were these tribes and other communities who were prepared to share their wealth?
The closest example of any society willingly living a 'socialist' type of existence was the ancient Spartans. And even that was meant only for those born as Spartans.
There is not one example of humans peacefully co-existing. Especially with another tribe.
 

Helm

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It was indeed! However, you appear to have got stuck in your own vapid arguments. I’m talking about the last two or three hundred years, if you recall. By the late 18th Century, feudalism was being rapidly superseded by mercantilism (the forerunner of Capitalism as we know it).
[QUOTE="Toasted_Giant, post: 9101397, member: 22323”]Was the Roman Republic a short lived flash in the pan?
Most certainly it wasn’t (I'll be so free and assume that you already know that). But the Roman Republic had long ceased to exist two or three hundred years ago.
[QUOTE="Toasted_Giant, post: 9101397, member: 22323”]I’m pretty certain that a fair few absolute monarchies knocked about for a bit.[/QUOTE]
Indeed they did, but they very quickly discovered that mercantilism/Capitalism was just up their street with regard to accumulating wealth.
[QUOTE="Toasted_Giant, post: 9101397, member: 22323”]No doubt Arrses very own Simon Schama will tell me different.*
*Or should that be Simon Bull Sh1tter? [/QUOTE]
It’d be really nice if you could see your way clear to discussing sensibly, instead of acting like a petulant, childish twät trying desperately to big himself up.

MsG[/QUOTE]
I see you neatly dodged the bit about how every socialist/communist system has broken down into either chaos or capitalism, I wonder why
 
Get with the revolution, Capitalist Running Dog Lackey!
Communism is the only answer.
Orwell's Animal Farm being a perfect illustration of what happens when some comrades become more equal than others.
 
Get with the revolution, Capitalist Running Dog Lackey!
Communism is the only answer.
Orwell's Animal Farm being a perfect illustration of what happens when some comrades become more equal than others.
Even the animal kingdom has an hierarchial system. It's nature.
 
Which sort of makes you wonder why folks still do it, in particular, because adherents of Capitalism, like Smith or Ricardo, are never blamed for all the deaths caused by the system they did so much to advocate. Although the relentless denigration of Marx and his theories are a confirmation of the power of "anti-Communist/Socialist" propaganda singularly determined to prevent anything like a free, equitable and just society ever becoming a reality.

MsG
It might be that the cause of the opprobriums the proponents come apologists for the heroes of Socialism receive is precisely because of the false moral high ground they like to occupy, this not being what the failures on the right of the spectrum suffer because they do not set themselves up as latter day saints.

Even there though things are changing, the one thing that could be said of the NF and BNP etc. was that they had no issue with being seen as the bastards they are, a sort of brutal honesty that eludes our saviours of the left hue, but even now the right have abandoned that stance and are pretending to be the nice guys. Snake oil salesmen, the lot of them.
 

smeg-head

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@DaManBugs, your quote 'He’s a child of the transition and, in principle, is in a position to furnish valuable information. But he’s simply decried as a “Putinbot” on ARRSE', whereas you are held in such high esteem! I'm sorry mate, but you left yourself wide open for that.
 
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