Handguns in British Service

[Stonker]

Early days APWT we trained on all infantry personal weapons and every promotion course weapons was high on the agenda and I was a mere reservist, even worse a mere survey engineer in a sponsored unit to start with and spent a lot of time with Browning and then Glock. Maybe I was lucky, maybe it was the REs

I'd be interested to know the years in question.

I'd also observe that in the 6 months of my T&AVR service as a Pte in 1973, I got more range time than I ever saw (between 1975 and 1991) in a year of Regular battalion duties, except (and only except) in those years when we had a NITAT (PDT) package.

As a junior staff officer with an overview of training across the SW of England, I saw how that played out as under-used ranges, and un-consumed ammo, with the latter leading to reduced buys, which in turn meant that Unit Annual Allocations were insufficient to meet the theoretical requirement to maintain the minimum skills required to pass annual shooting tests (oftentimes the only practices fired by any unit in a year!), yet ammo usage across the army declined year on year, leading to further reductions in the volume procured for successive years.

AND NOBODY - ABSOLUTELY NOT A FVCKING ONE - OF SENIOR OFFICER STATUS GAVE A FLYING FVCK!!​

Apart from basic handling (load, unload, make safe, strip, clean assemble, shoot safely) such skills as I acquired with a pistol (10 years unbeaten in unit level matches) were acquired almost entirely without formal coaching, because nobody in any of my units knew how to shoot pistol accurately.

I left in 2003. Anybody who tries to tell me that the Army's attitude to SAA has improved in the time since needs to bring some serious evidence to bear.

The officer corps culture simply doesn't 'get it' where small arms skills are concerned. It's an ignorance and apathy handed down from one generation to the next, and (sadly) seems to have been un-dented even by TELIC and HERRICK.

 

[Stonker]

I was told pull back with left and push forward with right but I do recall it was a bugger when wet or during a march and shoot when knackered, sweaty and slightly trembly (Bit like many things are...)

Correct training, but insufficient practice.

Do it often enough, you wind up doing it without thinking, irrespective of all other factors, just like blinking.

 

[Ian525]

Correct training, but insufficient practice.

Do it often enough, you wind up doing it without thinking, irrespective of all other factors, just like blinking.

I had no problem with it. Others did.

 

[Stonker]

I had no problem with it. Others did.

Thank you, 007.

Moneypenny will show you out.

 

[Bodenplatte]

I fired a Russian issued revolver in Kosovo in 1999. I got friendly with a Russian officer at the APod, which he was charged with guarding. He had a near miss one afternoon, nearly shot a Brit Major. It was definitely an ND and he should have been fucked off. But the Russians claimed the weapon was faulty, the Brits asked to have it inspected and a mate of mine, a REME armourer was charged with inspecting and testing it. I accompanied him to a pipe range and had a go myself. I found it very toyish and clumsy to use, but powerful enough.

A Russian issued revolver ? The Red Army used semi-autos from the mid 1930s, first the Tokarev TT-33 using a 7.62mm cartridge, then the Makarov using the Soviet 9x18mm cartridge.
The last Russian issued military revolver AFAIK was the Nagant M1895. That was a fine weapon, where the cylinder moved forward just before the round fired in order to seal the cylinder gap. The 7.62 rimmed cartridge was odd, in that the bullet was completely enclosed by the brass case

 

[Ian525]

I'd be interested to know the years in question.

I'd also observe that in the 6 months of my T&AVR service as a Pte in 1973, I got more range time than I ever saw (between 1975 and 1991) in a year of Regular battalion duties, except (and only except) in those years when we had a NITAT (PDT) package.

As a junior staff officer with an overview of training across the SW of England, I saw how that played out as under-used ranges, and un-consumed ammo, with the latter lading to reduced buys, which in turn meant that Unit Annual Allocations were insufficient to meet the theoretical requirement to maintain the minimum skills required to pass annual shooting tests (oftentimes the only practices fired!), yet ammo usage across the army declined year on year, leading to further reductions in the volume procured for successive years.

AND NOBODY OF SENIOR OFFICER STATUS GAVE A FLYING FVCK

Apart from basic handling (load, unload, make safe, strip, clean assemble, shoot safely) such skills as I acquired with a pistol (10 years unbeaten in unit level matches) were acquired almost entirely without formal coaching, because nobody in any of my units knew how to shoot pistol accurately.

I left in 2003. Anybody who ties to tell me that the Army's attitude to SAA has improved in the time since needs to bring some serious evidence to bear.

The officer corps culture simply doesn't' get it' where small arms skills are concerned. It's an ignorance and apathy handed down from one generation to the next, and (sadly) seems to have been un-dented even by TELIC and HERRICK.

Late 80's to 2000 (so long ago!). SLR, SMG, LMG, GPMG, Browning, then SA80/L85 and the Glock when I worked for a police force as estates director (we had ranges) and I got to use lots of other weapons that were not generally available. Our unit was a mix of civil reservists and ex reg reservists. JNCO and SNCO cadres had plenty of range time and on camp our host units always seemed to lay it on for us, but then we were doing a job of work and not sitting in a field for two weeks. I remember being told "you wear a sapper's badge, you will be expected to know everything and cope with everything" and weapons were very high priority.

 

[Ian525]

Thank you, 007.

Moneypenny will show you out.

Thank you M, the Aston, usual place?

 

[mechanicalhorsetrough]

A Russian issued revolver ? The Red Army used semi-autos from the mid 1930s, first the Tokarev TT-33 using a 7.62mm cartridge, then the Makarov using the Soviet 9x18mm cartridge.
The last Russian issued military revolver AFAIK was the Nagant M1895. That was a fine weapon, where the cylinder moved forward just before the round fired in order to seal the cylinder gap. The 7.62 rimmed cartridge was odd, in that the bullet was completely enclosed by the brass case

It’s a long while ago and I don’t remember the make and model, but it was definitely a revolver, I assumed at the time it was issued!

 

[JJWRacing]

And what about the 'also rans'?

FFS, in my lifetime we've never bothered to teach even infantry to be skilled with rifles, pistols were beneath contempt by comparison, c.f. Wood and Howes untimely demise.

The also rans didn't get any, it fact two Staff Officers also rans had their weapons (L85 A2) taken off them, as they were complete retards

 

[TamH70]

A Russian issued revolver ? The Red Army used semi-autos from the mid 1930s, first the Tokarev TT-33 using a 7.62mm cartridge, then the Makarov using the Soviet 9x18mm cartridge.
The last Russian issued military revolver AFAIK was the Nagant M1895. That was a fine weapon, where the cylinder moved forward just before the round fired in order to seal the cylinder gap. The 7.62 rimmed cartridge was odd, in that the bullet was completely enclosed by the brass case

Might have been one of the new(ish) MP-412 Rex revolvers, though they're only supposed to be export only.

IzMech MP-412 - Modern Firearms

 

[Mufulira42]

Might have been one of the new(ish) MP-412 Rex revolvers, though they're only supposed to be export only.

IzMech MP-412 - Modern Firearms

As a pistol collector of sorts I have a No2 Mk2* with a short 3 inch barrel in .380 or other wise known as 38 S & W (Slow and Weak) this was taken in a trade otherwise it would never have been acquired. After loading a bucket of rounds as a target item with 148gr hollow base wad cutter bullets I was greatly surprised at the fairly smooth trigger pull after expecting something akin to pulling open a barn door, my next surprise at how well it grouped at a Fig 11 target at 25yds. My other sleek and deep blued 357 mag could do better but costed considerably more than 75 Dollars! Guess even in the depths of WWII, Enfield turned out some fairly robust ironmongery that truly worked to the competitions dismay.

 

[terminal]

Might have been one of the new(ish) MP-412 Rex revolvers, though they're only supposed to be export only.

IzMech MP-412 - Modern Firearms

The Russians made a couple of other more conventional revolvers in the 1990s time frame. They fired either 9x17mm or 9x18mm (they had both options) and I presume used some sort of clip to hold the cartridges. They were intended for the police and private security markets in Russia, with the private security guards only allowed the lower powered 9x17mm versions (apparently so they wouldn't penetrate typical police body armour).

The main selling point was that they were supposed to be simple and robust and so easy to maintain. They sold some, but official interest was limited.

 

[TXSapper]

Late 80's to 2000 (so long ago!). SLR, SMG, LMG, GPMG, Browning, then SA80/L85 and the Glock when I worked for a police force as estates director (we had ranges) and I got to use lots of other weapons that were not generally available. Our unit was a mix of civil reservists and ex reg reservists. JNCO and SNCO cadres had plenty of range time and on camp our host units always seemed to lay it on for us, but then we were doing a job of work and not sitting in a field for two weeks. I remember being told "you wear a sapper's badge, you will be expected to know everything and cope with everything" and weapons were very high priority.

You were blessed - I attended the Corp Cadre and was staff/dogs body on two Regt Cadres.. I dont remember anything but an APWT. Ammo/shooting was next to nil throughout my 8 years (95-2003). Even before Major deployments, actually trigger time was embarrassing.

 

[soutie]

British officers didn't carry revolvers to protect themselves from their own men.

In WW1 the RFC carried semi auto Webleys and M1911s (chambered for ,455 Auto), and RHA also used Webley s/autos with detachable shoulder stocks, as a carbine.

You don't have to thumb cock double action revolvers.

And and, didnt the 1911 have a grip safety too?

 

[4(T)]

As a pistol collector of sorts I have a No2 Mk2* with a short 3 inch barrel in .380 or other wise known as 38 S & W (Slow and Weak) this was taken in a trade otherwise it would never have been acquired. After loading a bucket of rounds as a target item with 148gr hollow base wad cutter bullets I was greatly surprised at the fairly smooth trigger pull after expecting something akin to pulling open a barn door, my next surprise at how well it grouped at a Fig 11 target at 25yds. My other sleek and deep blued 357 mag could do better but costed considerably more than 75 Dollars! Guess even in the depths of WWII, Enfield turned out some fairly robust ironmongery that truly worked to the competitions dismay.

IIRC the short-barrelled No2 revolvers were the creation of one of the US importers, along with some "police pistol" marketing story.

The No2 was an excellent service weapon. It was intended as a lightweight, safe, reliable, general purpose weapon for those that needed some sort of belt gun. It was probably better suited for the vast majority of `military tasks than an auto pistol - given the lower level of training and competence neeeded for safe handling of a revolver.

The No2 and the similar Webley .380 are both nice shooting guns. Not much wrong with .380 S&W at typical service range of about 25 yds - plenty enough penetration to do the intended task.

 

[Ian525]

You were blessed - I attended the Corp Cadre and was staff/dogs body on two Regt Cadres.. I dont remeber anything but an APWT. Ammo/shooting was next to nil throughout my 8 years (95-2003). Even before Major deployments, actually trigger time was embarrassing.

I've been told that a few times and I thought our training was normal. With hindsight it certainly wasn't. We went to places regulars didn't, our training was very wide ranging and intense but practical by a range of interesting characters to prepare us for goodness knows what. I will say that the weapons handling I saw the police use made me nervous and I was glad of the drills the army gave me.

 

[tgo]

And and, didnt the 1911 have a grip safety too?

Yes.

 

[Mufulira42]

IIRC the short-barrelled No2 revolvers were the creation of one of the US importers, along with some "police pistol" marketing story.

The No2 was an excellent service weapon. It was intended as a lightweight, safe, reliable, general purpose weapon for those that needed some sort of belt gun. It was probably better suited for the vast majority of `military tasks than an auto pistol - given the lower level of training and competence neeeded for safe handling of a revolver.

The No2 and the similar Webley .380 are both nice shooting guns. Not much wrong with .380 S&W at typical service range of about 25 yds - plenty enough penetration to do the intended task.

Agree they are nice to shoot and on occasion some 200gr ammo turns up they do have some wallop -- a member of our Club used such items at a "Rolling Thunder Shoot" a 3 man team has 15 targets at 10 yards in the fastest time 15 targets are 16" length (40cm) of 4"x4" on a flat surface, 2 pistols and 1 shotgun Time stops after last target hits the ground ---- best time 7 seconds! The member used 200gr bullets that had an arc like rainbow but the timber targets literally jumped off the base once struck -- 357magnums seemed to pass through and merely caused a little wobble as did 9mm --- hollow point rounds performed as expected and dumped energy into the blocks.

 

[tgo]

Agree they are nice to shoot and on occasion some 200gr ammo turns up they do have some wallop -- a member of our Club used such items at a "Rolling Thunder Shoot" a 3 man team has 15 targets at 10 yards in the fastest time 15 targets are 16" length (40cm) of 4"x4" on a flat surface, 2 pistols and 1 shotgun Time stops after last target hits the ground ---- best time 7 seconds! The member used 200gr bullets that had an arc like rainbow but the timber targets literally jumped off the base once struck -- 357magnums seemed to pass through and merely caused a little wobble as did 9mm --- hollow point rounds performed as expected and dumped energy into the blocks.

Ahh yes the good ol' no2 Mortar

 

[Himmler74]

You were blessed - I attended the Corp Cadre and was staff/dogs body on two Regt Cadres.. I dont remember anything but an APWT. Ammo/shooting was next to nil throughout my 8 years (95-2003). Even before Major deployments, actually trigger time was embarrassing.

Bad leadership, Officers and NCO’s putting trade before soldiering. It’s a key component in being in the armed services otherwise your just BT in disguise.